# Examples of natural phenomena being used as proof of religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108 "2017-10-06T14:31:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/21 "2017-10-06T17:16:55Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > What some are mentioning above it the [argument from beauty](http://www.google.com/search?q=argument+from+beauty&btnG=), which can be summarized as “flowers are pretty, therefore Jesus.” The head of the landscape crew that works on my yard is named Jesus, so yeah. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/22 "2017-10-06T17:22:42Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Any concept understandable to people today would be understandable to people 3,000 years ago, if you have the patience. If there was a god 3,000 years ago and wanted people to understand the germ theory of disease, _he could have told them how to make a fucking microscope_ instead of giving instructions on exactly what the curtains in his temple should look like. Why would he care about germ theory? And what good would a microscope be without metallurgy, glass making and optics etc. Your value system might not be the same as a creator of a self-sustaining ecosystem. In fact, humans with such knowledge might destroy such ecosystem. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/23 "2017-10-06T17:31:08Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > Existence itself is often seen as “proof.” “You don’t think something came from nothing do you?” Where did God come from? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/24 "2017-10-06T17:37:42Z")
Let’s start with thunder and lightning. Think about the ancient gods Zeus, Thor, etc. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/25 "2017-10-06T17:45:56Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Imo, we should keep as open a mind as possible as new evidence pours in. I _am_ keeping an open mind about the existence of a god, just as you are surely keeping an open mind about the existence of leprechauns. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/26 "2017-10-06T18:00:16Z")
[The frequent ability of mosques to withstand natural disasters](https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/sturdy-mosques-survived-tsunami/) that destroy everything else in their vicinity is often taken as proof of the divine. A skeptic might notice that the believers put a lot of resources into building a very sturdy house of worship, while all of the structures around them were flimsy pieces of crap. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/27 "2017-10-06T18:51:44Z")
[Bill Oreilly and tides.](https://youtu.be/wb3AFMe2OQY?t=112) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/28 "2017-10-06T18:57:31Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > If only someone could coin a word meaning a lack of belief. Disbelief? But the one I like in precisely this context is atheism. I tell people who inquire that by certain knowledge I am agnostic but by belief I am an atheistic. That seems clear enough to me. Whether they believe me or not is another matter. My DIL doesn’t. She thinks that deep down I must believe god created all of this. I don’t. I believe that it always was and always will be and, no I cannot explain why. But I know that if it wasn’t, I wouldn’t be here to contemplate it. The ultimate philosophical question: Why is there something rather than nothing? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/29 "2017-10-06T19:06:07Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > The head of the landscape crew that works on my yard is named Jesus, so yeah. I’ll bet he answers if you call him some other god’s name. Try it, say “Hey, Zeus” next time you need to talk to him. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/30 "2017-10-06T19:09:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Why is the idea of a creator so hard to believe? Where did the matter and energy of the universe come from? “We do not know enough to know where it actually came from, but we know how it came to be what it is today starting from the first moment of the Big Bang.” “If we say there is a Creator, then we know where it came from!” “Where did the Creator come from?” “There are some things that our feeble minds are just not able to grasp, and the nature of the Creator is one of those things. It is just too complex and beyond our ability to understand.” “Why can’t we just say that the origin of the universe is beyond our ability to grasp, and leave it at that? No Creator required.” “” ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_crow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@lonesome\_crow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_crow)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/31 "2017-10-06T19:25:51Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Let’s start with thunder and lightning. Think about the ancient gods Zeus, Thor, etc. I agree. Let the person who believes in god explain why it is that Zeus, Thor etc **DON’T** exist. Then apply the same theory as to why _their_ god does **not** exist. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/32 "2017-10-06T20:02:09Z")
One point a good friend of mine made. Look at the incredible diversity of life around you. Mammals, reptiles, insects, fish, trees, flowering and other plants, etc. Before Darwin, it was simpler to assume a deity made each of them in individual acts of creation. After Darwin there needed to be only one act of creation of life on earth. Still something of a mystery, but they are coming to understand ways it might have happened. But once life got going, only natural causes need be invoked to explain the diversity. I wonder if this realization is reason for the opposition to evolution. It removes one of the strongest arguments for god. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/33 "2017-10-06T20:05:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And what good would a microscope be without metallurgy, glass making and optics etc. Implicit in my point is that the god would explain metallurgy and optics to the people 3,000 years ago. Take aside a group of students, teach them principles of science, engineering, medicine, etc for a decade or two out of the god’s all-knowing and eternal existence. My point is that there is nothing about people that live in primitive conditions that makes it impossible for a motivated omniscient being to bring them up to a modern level of knowledge, and that your assertion that a god would “have” to use only concepts already known 3,000 years ago is poop ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/34 "2017-10-06T20:46:22Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I have to disagree because again we have no idea whether there is a ‘creator’ or not. Imo, we should keep as open a mind as possible as new evidence pours in. > > Why is the idea of a creator so hard to believe? Where did the matter and energy of the universe come from? If you’re willing to believe that God came from nothing, you have no basis whatsoever for denying that the Universe could just as easily have come from nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/35 "2017-10-06T21:07:28Z")
Moved to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/36 "2017-10-06T21:15:25Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > Go way back to the original natural phenomenon - are there any religions out there saying “Let there be light” = the Big Bang? Actually, right after the Big Bang the universe was opaque, so the Bible fails on this one also. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/37 "2017-10-06T21:19:12Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > If there is a God and if God revealed truth to humans 3000 years ago, would not he have to use language and concepts understandable to them. > > If God or our alien overlords tried to explain to us on 2017 the specific science explaining the universe and everything within, we could not understand it. They would have to try to explain in using language and concepts that we do understand. Back in my Usenet days I wrote a version of Genesis that got it right but at the same level that Genesis was written at. You don’t need equations to say that the universe was created a very long time ago - Eastern religions somehow managed to say that. And you can also get the order of things right. Really, if God can’t explain as well as Carl Sagan, he is a pretty feeble god. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/38 "2017-10-06T21:24:00Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I have to disagree because again we have no idea whether there is a ‘creator’ or not. Imo, we should keep as open a mind as possible as new evidence pours in. > > Why is the idea of a creator so hard to believe? Where did the matter and energy of the universe come from? And here is my challenge - never answered. If there is a creator, please relate him, her or it to any human religion. The creator could be the god of some other planet, long gone to heaven, and we are here until this god decides to clean up. Or it can be a deistic god. Or it can be a grad student doing a universe creation experiment who got lucky. What we do know is that if there is really a creator god, and he, she or it looks at Genesis, he’d say “who believes in this crap?” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/39 "2017-10-06T21:33:03Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I have to disagree because again we have no idea whether there is a ‘creator’ or not. Imo, we should keep as open a mind as possible as new evidence pours in. > > Why is the idea of a creator so hard to believe? Where did the matter and energy of the universe come from? Where did the matter and energy of your creator come from? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108/40 "2017-10-06T21:44:24Z")
well this went off topic. My intent was the[god of the gaps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps) argument, before science people didn’t really understand much, so natural phenomena was attributed to religious and supernatural forces. Chemicals from a mine, chemicals in a plant, eclipses, comets, mental illnesses, etc. were all attributed to a deity. Something would happen, people couldn’t explain it so they attributed it to a deity. I know that the creation of existence is another one, but I recently read an interesting theory from Lawrence Krauss that the universe is in a zero energy state. According to him, the energy of all the matter is counterbalanced by negative energy from gravity, meaning the universe could arise from nothing. I don’t get the details, but still interesting. > **[Zero-energy universe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe)** > > The zero-energy universe hypothesis proposes that the total amount of energy in the universe is exactly zero: its amount of positive energy in the form of matter is exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. Some physicists, such as Lawrence Krauss, Stephen Hawking or Alexander Vilenkin, call or called this state "a universe from nothingness", although the zero-energy universe model requires both a matter field with positive energy and a gravitational field with negati Du... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-natural-phenomena-being-used-as-proof-of-religion/798108.md?page=3)