# Examples Of Popular Culture Irony That People Don't Seem To 'Get' **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 18, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596 "2003-04-18T17:35:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/81 "2003-04-20T20:13:12Z")
When it comes to televangelists, I’ll throw out one more layer of irony. There’s an outfit called The Trinity Foundation which keeps tabs on televangelists, runs a charity for the homeless, and publishes _The Door Magazine_, which does very good Christian satire. I believe they get told they’re going to hell several times a month. While I’m piling on, The Trinity Foundation originally did fairly neutral monitoring of televangelists. They are a Christian organization and were in favor of televangelists when they first started to get significant airtime back in the 1970’s. Then two things happened. First, they started to notice the tone of the broadcasts. Second, they had people coming to their homeless ministries who had given televangelists their last dollar in the hope of rewards to come. They’re one charity I recommend whole-heartedly. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/82 "2003-04-21T01:52:29Z")
Yes, Springsteen is pissing on the flag. And Paul is dead. And Jerry Mathers died from eating Pop Rocks in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/83 "2003-04-21T03:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by psychonaut \* > \*\*John Lennon’s “we’re bigger than Jesus” comment – As he later explained, he was lamenting this fact, not gloating. \*\* It’s hard to believe Lennon’s back-pedaling when you read the quotation [in context](http://www.geocities.com/nastymcquickly/articles/standard.html) from the _London Evening Standard_: > [@](#): > > Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn’t argue with that; I’m right and I will be proved right. We’re more popular than Jesus now; I don’t know which will go first — rock ‘n’ roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/84 "2003-04-21T04:15:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avumede \* > \*\*The “If you prick me, do I not bleed” speech from Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice. It was certainly not meant to be a sincere defence of the Jews, the play is incredibly anti-semitic. \*\* Shylock’s “If you prick _us_, do _we_ not bleed” speech is a notable move toward sympathy for a Jewish character in a time and country where Jews themselves had been banned for three centuries. Shakespeare could as well have meant the play to be about Christian hypocrisy. Bassanio has squandered his wealth and now wants to marry for money. Portia gives her famous speech about the quality of mercy, and then shows none of it to Shylock in court. Lorenzo is not only in love with Shylock’s daughter Jessica, he’s eager for the jewels and money she promises to steal from her father. Do you want incredibly anti-semitic? Contrast Shylock with the title character in _The Jew of Malta_ by Shakespeare’s contemporary, Marlowe. He is directly responsible for seven murders in the play, as well as poisoning an entire convent of nuns. And when his daughter dares to fall in love with a Christian, he murders her. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/85 "2003-04-21T04:30:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\*I think it’s ironic that Green Day’s **Good Riddance (Time Of Your Life)** gets played at sentimental, parting moments - I recall that the grade above mine at high school had it as their “theme.” > > It’s called _Good Riddance_, people! Haven’t you noticed that? He’s obviously being bitter and sarcastic when he sings “I hope you had the time of your life.” Hardly appropriate for memorialising good times! \*\* Actually, no, I hadn’t. I’d never heard it called anything but “Time of Your Life.” Given that, I hardly think it’s fair to fault people for not noticing any so-called irony, especially considering that I don’t remember anything about the lyrics that even hints at irony… What I found ironic was the popularity of TAFKAPrince’s “1999” being played all the time during that year, considering it was about nuclear holocaust… ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/86 "2003-04-21T13:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Leaper_ > Actually, no, I hadn’t. I’d never heard it called anything but “Time of Your Life.” I’m looking at the back of **Nimrod** right now, and it says: > [@](#): > > 1. Good Riddance (Time Of Your Life) The lyrics can be interpreted as a sappy memorial, but taken within the context of the title, it is quite clear that the protagonist is quite bitter at the turn of events (presumably a break-up). > [@](#): > > _originally posted by jackelope_ > Actually I always heard the title itself as ironic, since (I thought) it didn’t mean “good riddance” in the sense of “I’m glad you’re out of my life,” but instead in the sense of “this is a good parting.” I may be wrong. I see what you’re saying, but it doesn’t really seem to make much sense. You don’t generally call a parting that you’re sorrowful for a “riddance,” ironically or not. Irony needs to have a purpose; and if the title is ironic in the sense you mention, it seems to lack a purpose. The song makes a lot more sense when “I hope you had the time of your life” is taken sarcastically. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by bluecanary_ > ‘Shiny Happy People’ by R.E.M? Maybe not. In **R.E.M. Inside Out: The Stories Behind Every Song** , the following paragraph appears: > [@](#): > > Although [Guitarist, Peter] Buck has said ‘Shiny Happy People’ was “tongue-in-cheek,” on at least one occasion, Stipe claimed that the song was sincere, bragging that it was “the happiest song,” he has ever written. “You can’t sing the words without smiling, because there’s so many E sounds,” He told Brantley bardin in _Details_. “I’m an extraordinarily happy person.” ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/87 "2003-04-21T22:20:31Z")
Back in the 90s a film starring Debra Winger was made from Dominick Dunne’s novel **An Inconvenient Woman**. The title referred to a sincere but not-too-bright woman, and the “inconvenient” part, IIRC, refered to the guilt and other consequences that come to a party who takes advantage of her. There is a film teacher who reviews movies for a local public radio station in St. Louis. She may be great shakes as a profssor (I don’t know), but as a reviewer she is a master of the obvious, and of nothing else. She went on a rant when the movie came out, insisting–no kidding-- that its existence proved not only that its producers were mysoginistic, but that all of the Hollywood film industry hated women. One of her proofs was the title: she thought it was terribly unfair to denounce the abused woman as being “inconvenient”. ---
**Author:** ![bluecanary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bluecanary/32/3614_2.png) [@bluecanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluecanary)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/88 "2003-04-21T22:50:08Z")
An R.E.M aside: **gex** : What does your book say _‘Stand’_ (off Green) is about? I’ve always been baffled by that one. ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/89 "2003-04-21T22:57:43Z")
The Village People’s “In the Navy” does not strike me as ironic; it seems quite straightforward in suggesting that the navy is a good place to meet guys if you are gay, and while homosexuality is banned in the U. S. military, it is just possible that there really are one or two servicemen who are gay anyway. What does strike me as ironic is a UL I heard back around 1979 or 80 that some folks in the U. S. Navy considered using the song in recruitment ads until somebody pulled them aside and gently explained to them what the song was really about. The history of homophobia in America abounds with ironies. Many of the most outspoken homophobes of recent times were themselves active homosexuals: G. Harrell Carswell, the Rev. Billy Sol Hargis and Roy Cohn come to mind as examples. It can count as irony that a good many easily swayed people accepted that gays are boogie-men on the say-so of such people. Then there are the publicly homophobic figures such as Ronald Reagan, who sniggered during the Vietnam War that long-haired protestors said “make love, not war”, but didn’t look as though they could do either. While shunning gays publicly, on first learning that Ronald Jr. wanted to study ballet, the utra-sophisticated Ronald Sr. sought the advice of a close friend he knew was homosexual, and asked him if liking ballet meant that his son was “funny”. In an interview with Playboy, Anita Bryant admitted, apparently without self-consciousness, that it was not until she was well into her anti-homosexual campaign that she found out what homosexuals “did”. While on the subject of bigotry, there is the regard with which Hitler and his inner circle seem to have actually held some Jews. While it has been the subject of a good deal of ridiculous tabloid-style journalism, it appears Hitler really did have a fetish about The Spear of Destiny, and he is said to have relied on a Jewish astrologer. While ranting about their supposed inferiority at every opportunity, it appears that Hitler on some level actually felt that Jews were “magic”. There also comes to mind the the strident support some right- wing Christians show for Israel, while remaining convinced that unconverted Jews rot in Hell for eternity, an attitude they reflect daily in their dealings with the few Jews they meet. As for Shakespeare, I don’t agree that Shylock’s speech was meant to be ironic. One of the many things that made Shakespeare’s writing brilliant was his ability to see greatness in the base and baseness in the great; consider that Hamlet’s uncle lamented that he could not truly repent of his sin, or that Caliban took comfort in the beauty of music. Even in fashioning a villain like Shylock he was able to see his underlying humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/90 "2003-04-22T02:00:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\*The lyrics can be interpreted as a sappy memorial, but taken within the context of the title, it is quite clear that the protagonist is quite bitter at the turn of events (presumably a break-up). > \*\* See, that’s my point. I think it’s a rather weak/poor sort of irony where the ONLY way to tell that it was ironic was through the title, especially in a world where probably 80% of the people who know the song know it from the radio, which always, as far as I know, gives the title “Time of Your Life.” At least with all the other music-related mentions on this thread, you can actually TELL what it’s saying when you read the lyrics. You can’t in this case, and I don’t think it quite fits in this thread, because it’s hardly the public’s fault that they “don’t get the song.” ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/91 "2003-04-22T03:57:54Z")
I consider a song’s title to be as integral to the meaning of the song as the lyrics, just as the title of a poem or book can provide insight into the work itself. Frankly, if the public couldn’t be bothered to learn the correct title to the song, it _is_ their fault that they didn’t “get” the song. Which, of course, makes it so much the more amusing for those of us who got it from the start. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![psychomonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@psychomonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychomonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/92 "2003-04-22T04:28:12Z")
Even without the titel of the song it seems pretty f\*ckin bitter > [@](#): > > So take the photographs, and still frames in your mind. > Hang it on a shelf of good health and good time The tone isn’t a caring loving parting its more of a hope youre happy. And I agree it’s their fault for not looking up the title of the song. Can blame them and will 😉 . -PSM ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/93 "2003-04-22T04:34:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by casdave \* > \*\*I konw what irony is, its like goldy or silvery, but with iron. \*\* That reminds me of something I heard on a radio show a long time ago. The host (Howard Stern, I think) was talking to a particularly funny and caller. I think he was an amateur comedian. Howard asked the caller to define irony. Without a second’s hesitation, the caller\* replied, “It’s how the water that comes out of the fountain at the park tastes!” \*I still remember the caller’s name because it was so damn funny - Colt Forty-Feinburg. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/94 "2003-04-22T04:50:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarrsk \* > \*\*I consider a song’s title to be as integral to the meaning of the song as the lyrics, just as the title of a poem or book can provide insight into the work itself. Frankly, if the public couldn’t be bothered to learn the correct title to the song, it _is_ their fault that they didn’t “get” the song. Which, of course, makes it so much the more amusing for those of us who got it from the start. 😉 \*\* Huh? Why should they have bothered to ltry to seek the correct title? As far as they’re (and I was) concerned, the radio had SAID what it was, and it was NOT “Good Riddance.” Where was the clue that all was not right, besides the snickering of people feeling superior (not you or anyone here in particular; generally)? And anyway, there are very few songs that I know of that don’t have their titles in their lyrics, so it’s not like it was a stretch to assume that what we were told was right… **psychomonkey** : Sorry, I’m not seeing it. Mebbe I’m tired, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/95 "2003-04-22T04:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slipster \* > \*\*As for Shakespeare, I don’t agree that Shylock’s speech was > meant to be ironic. One of the many things that made Shakespeare’s writing brilliant was his ability to see greatness in the base and baseness in the great; consider that Hamlet’s uncle lamented that he could not truly repent of his sin, or that Caliban took comfort in the beauty of music. Even in fashioning a villain like Shylock he was able to see his underlying humanity. \*\* This is true, but consider that most people don’t remember what comes after the famous bit. Here’s the whole thing. Shylock is asked what the pound of flesh he’s after would be good for, and he replies thus: > [@](#): > > To bait fish withal: if it will feed nothing else, it will feed my revenge. He hath disgraced me, and hindered me half a million; laughed at my losses, mocked at my gains, scorned my nation, thwarted my bargains, cooled my friends, heated mine > enemies; and what’s his reason? I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. He is indeed making a plea about his own humanity – but he’s doing it to justify taking horrible bloody revenge. And on the _other_ hand, as he himself says, he really _isn’t_ that much worse than the rest of the characters in the play, who are for the most part a band of shallow hypocrites. So it’s very complicated – but the speech isn’t really the sympathetic moment it’s taken to be, out of context. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/96 "2003-04-22T05:09:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bjohn13 \* > \*\*I fear I may have never fully appreciated the irony that exists in Billy Joel’s “Allentown”. If I’m not mistaken, the song hails from his _Nylon Curtain_ lp. > > It seems that Joel is lamenting the upbringing that exists in Allentown, PA (I assume that’s the case since he sings of Bethlehem from just up the road and vacationing on the Jersey shore…as well as mining iron, coal, and chromium steel. Perhaps “the Pennsylvania we’ve never found” is what really gives it away). It sounds like he’s trying to reminisce while also trying to find something to reminisce about.\*\* Actually, I remember hearing (on a VH-1 show, IIRC) that Joel actually wrote the song about Bethlehem, PA, a steel town, but decided that the name didn’t have an American sound to it, so he changed the name to Allentown (despite the fact that Allentown didn’t have a steel mill). > [@](#): > > It appears as if he’s not being as straightforward as the song originally suggests. > > Someone explain this stanza: > > “Every child has a pretty good shot > To get at least as far as their old man got. > Something happened on the way to that place. > Somebody threw an Amercian flag in their face.” Actually, I think you may have misunderstood the lyric here. He says “Every child **had** a pretty good shot.” Past tense. That is, in previous generations, every child had a chance to get at least as far as his father, but not anymore. Or at least that’s how I understood it. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/97 "2003-04-22T05:38:33Z")
\<\\> Wendell, it WAS by the Mamas and the Papas. I have a copy. Maybe Peter, Paul, and Mary had another song. But your memory is completely accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/98 "2003-04-22T06:07:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yllaria \* > \*\*\<\\> > > Wendell, it WAS by the Mamas and the Papas. I have a copy. Maybe Peter, Paul, and Mary had another song. But your memory is completely accurate. \*\* Ahh, maybe you want to go back and look at that album again. This [site](http://frogcircus.org/ppm/21/i_dig_rock_and_roll_music.html) list the writers of this song as > [@](#): > > Stookey/Mason/Dixon Not sure about Mason and Dixion, but Stookey’s first name is Paul. As in Peter, **Paul** and Mary ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/99 "2003-04-22T06:32:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slipster \* > \*\* Many of the most outspoken homophobes of recent times were themselves active homosexuals: G. Harrell Carswell, the Rev. Billy Sol Hargis and Roy Cohn come to mind as examples. \*\* \ [www.gaylib.com/text/rept11.htm+%2B+%22G.+Harold+Carswell%22+%2B+%22homosexuality%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8](http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:MfV8pdDRyUIC:%5Burl)]G. HAROLD Carswell [Billy JAMES Hargis](http://www.messiah.edu/hpages/facstaff/chase/talk1/fn/31.htm) has been conflated with [Billie Sol Estes](http://members.aol.com/wmpb/BillieSol/). Estes has never been (to my knowledge, anyway) either a homosexual or a man of the cloth. ---
**Author:** ![adamsc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@adamsc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adamsc)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596/100 "2003-04-22T07:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slipster \* > \*\*Is anyone familiar with Trinity Broadcasting? > > This evangelical television network regularly broadcasts sermons denouncing welfare programs; I once heard a preacher on the network state that it was “unChristian and unBiblical to take money from a person who works and give it to a person who doesn’t”. The crowd attending the sermon went wild with applause, not pausing to consider that the “the person who doesn’t” would include those widows and orphans mentioned so often in the New Testament. > \*\* I’m not usually one to defend televangelists but that sounds like a very consistent position if “take” is used in any context stronger than “accept” - the entire point to Christianity is that it’s voluntary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-popular-culture-irony-that-people-dont-seem-to-get/169596.md?page=6)