# Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, war has not solved a thing **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 23, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651 "2003-03-23T23:41:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/21 "2003-03-24T19:29:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. > > Robert A. Heinlein ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/22 "2003-03-24T19:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyone who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine ‘that violence never settles anything’ I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom. > > Robert A. Heinlein ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/23 "2003-03-24T19:37:29Z")
I remember that slave, fascist, nazist, and communistic nations STARTED wars and they were the ones that ended badly. The slogan may be catchy, but it is shallow. **Oicu812** : you are barking at the wrong tree; DEFENCE against an agressor is good, Justifying war before an agresion is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/24 "2003-03-24T19:41:07Z")
In fact, he never even noticed it was going on! “Eva, liebchen, did you hear zomezing?” “Ach, zat vas just ze thunder, Adolph!” ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/25 "2003-03-24T19:49:50Z")
So, then it is your stand that the American Revolution was wrong, immoral, and should never have taken place, GIGO? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/26 "2003-03-24T19:54:17Z")
**Oicu812** , besides being irrelevant to the slogan at hand, I think the moment the British shot at the future Americans was the moment it became a duty to revolt. ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/27 "2003-03-24T19:59:22Z")
You forget, sir, that it was the Americans… er… excuse me, DISLOYAL ENGLISH SUBJECTS that fired first. Traitors to the Crown. And this argument is NOT irrelevant to the point at hand. It is PRESICELY the point at hand. The very nature of this thread… So quit trying to weasel out, here. Yes, or no? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/28 "2003-03-24T20:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*“All right … all right … but apart from better sanitation and medicine > and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater > system and baths and public order … what HAVE the Romans done for US?” \*\* You managed to totally ruin one of the finest toss-offs in the entire movie! After citing the sewers, irrigation, education and all that, _someone else_ offers up the roads. Their mention of it is instantly dismissed with, “That goes without saying.” One of the all-time howlers in the whole film. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/29 "2003-03-24T20:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > \*\*You forget, sir, that it was the Americans… er… excuse me, DISLOYAL ENGLISH SUBJECTS that fired first. > > Traitors to the Crown. > > And this argument is NOT irrelevant to the point at hand. It is PRESICELY the point at hand. The very nature of this thread… So quit trying to weasel out, here. Yes, or no? \*\* Exkweeze me, but I believe there has been no conclusive evidence about which side fired the first shots at Lexington and Concord, which most would agree was the beginning of the American Revolution. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/30 "2003-03-24T20:11:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > \*\*You forget, sir, that it was the Americans… er… excuse me, DISLOYAL ENGLISH SUBJECTS that fired first. > > Traitors to the Crown. > > And this argument is NOT irrelevant to the point at hand. It is PRESICELY the point at hand. The very nature of this thread… So quit trying to weasel out, here. Yes, or no? \*\* You forgot the Boston Massacre, and no, the one that is weaseling out is you by not dealing with my point, and by adding a democratic movement to the dictatorial ones on the shallow slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/31 "2003-03-24T20:59:44Z")
Oops. “Precisely”. Anyway, your point is that it is never acceptable to strike first, and I disagree with you. Correct? And how did I not deal with your point? I brought up a historical example of a people that went to war pre-emptively, over taxation (money) and political representation (power). Anyway, the summation still fits: You think it is wrong to strike first, and I don’t. Mainly, all the anti-war garbage is very thinly veiled anti-Bush rhetoric, anyway. Clinton bombed Iraq, and we didn’t see this kind of garbage then. As a matter of fact, Tom Daschle was all for it, saying that we had exhausted all other options at that time. Let me find the quote… Hold on a minute… Ah, here it is! [quote] “I hope Saddam Hussein and those who are in control of the Iraqi government clearly understand the resolve and determination of this administration and this country. This may be a political year, . . . but on this issue there can be no disunity. There can be no lack of cohesion. We stand united, Republicans and Democrats, determined to send as clear a message with as clear a resolve as we can articulate: Saddam Hussein’s actions will not be tolerated. His willingness to brutally attack Kurds in northern Iraq and abrogate U.N. resolutions is simply unacceptable. We intend to make that point clear with the use of force, with the use of legislative language, and with the use of other actions that the president and the Congress have at their disposal.” -Tom Daschle - September 1996 “Look, we have exhausted virtually our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that, what other option is there but to force them to do so? . . . The answer is, we don’t have another option. We have got to force them to comply, and we are doing so militarily.” -Tom Daschle - February, 1998 [quote] O ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/32 "2003-03-24T21:05:36Z")
Crap. Not my day for spelling OR coding, it seems. O ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/33 "2003-03-24T21:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by //\etalhea|) \* > \*\*Wanna fight about it?😃 \*\* How about we just talk it out. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/34 "2003-03-24T23:24:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*You forgot the Boston Massacre, and no, the one that is weaseling out is you by not dealing with my point, and by adding a democratic movement to the dictatorial ones on the shallow slogan. \*\* I thought the _reason_ the so-called Massacre (the death toll wasn’t exactly on a macro scale) occured was because the Future Americans were already revolting…? ---
**Author:** ![\_etalhea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/779978/32.png) [@\_etalhea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_etalhea)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/35 "2003-03-25T01:12:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > \*\*You forget, sir, that it was the Americans… er… excuse me, DISLOYAL ENGLISH SUBJECTS that fired first. > > Traitors to the Crown. > > And this argument is NOT irrelevant to the point at hand. It is PRESICELY the point at hand. The very nature of this thread… So quit trying to weasel out, here. Yes, or no? \*\* ummm, That’s not the way I learned it. Here’s a [cite](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2p24.html) and from that PBS article I confirmed that: \*That evening a group of about thirty, described by John Adams as “a motley rabble of saucy boys, negroes and molattoes, Irish teagues and outlandish jack tarrs,” began taunting the guard at the custom house with snowballs, sticks and insults. Seven other redcoats came to the lone soldier’s rescue, and **Attucks was one of five men killed when they opened fire.** Patriots, pamphleteers and propagandists immediately dubbed the event the “Boston Massacre,” and its victims became instant martyrs and symbols of liberty. Despite laws and customs regulating the burial of blacks, Attucks was buried in the Park Street cemetery along with the other honored dead.\* Granted, they were prevoked, but I do believe the Brits fired first. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/36 "2003-03-25T03:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > \*\*U. S. slavery was _not_ ended by the American Civil War? World War II did _not_ defeat Nazi Germany? I’m a bit confused as to your comment, **presidebt**. \*\* The OP contained no refernces specifically to US slavery, or any government-sanctioned/enforced slavery, nor did the poster specifically address “Nazi Germany” or WWII. But: As others have pointed out, war did not end US slavery, it simply kept the nation intact. However, we still have slavery in [Africa,](http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=13&art_id=qw1048500545329B236&set_id=1) [the US,](http://www.gopbi.com/auto/epaper/editions/tuesday/opinion_e367b8bb3754112000c2.html) [Australia,](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6165092%255E2702,00.html) [Columbia and Japan,](http://www.iht.com/articles/89985.html) and, oh, [the US](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,915618,00.html) again. I could cite more but I think that should make the point. There are [American Nazis,](http://www.americannaziparty.com/) [Swedish Nazia,](http://www.socialismtoday.org/45/swedish_nazis.html) [Norwegian Nazis,](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1765620.stm) [Canadian Nazis,](http://www.standonguard.com/freedomsite.html) and [Neo Nazis,](http://www.rickross.com/groups/neonazis.html) among others. Hell, there are so many nzais that some people feel the need to organize as [Anti-Nazis.](http://www.anl.org.uk/05-europe.htm) I really can’t believe any thinking person with resource to world information can actually claim that fascism and communism are dead with a straight face. The existence of China negates the latter, and I’ve spent far too much time on this already to go looking up the number of regimes that are referred to in world media and opinion as fascist. Hope that helps clarify. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/37 "2003-03-25T04:10:27Z")
**presidebt** : Instead of me trying to reiterate an excellent post, why don’t you go back and read **Metalhead** ’s first post in this thread? It pretty much explains the difference between practicality and nit-picking. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/38 "2003-03-25T12:37:14Z")
Not that it helps, but I was watching History Channel last night, and they had an episode on famous guns. You know, Oswald’s rifle, the derringer that shot Lincoln, train robber guns, the gun that started WWI, the lot. They mention that historians may have narrowed “The shot heard round the world” to one of three guns, a rifle in, uh, Philadelpha, or two pistols in, uh, Boston? Something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Kakkerlak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bb73d2/32.png) [@Kakkerlak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kakkerlak)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/39 "2003-03-25T15:04:48Z")
Years ago I was in the freshman International Relations class at Notre Dame, taught by the renowned George Lopez. In the first day, Dr. Lopez was doing a general lecture on the breadth of the class and the relations between States, and he asked the open question about how States resolve differences. “Treaties !”, came one reply. “Mediation !”. “Arbitration !”. “The U.N !” followed in small choruses. Then the answers petered out, but Dr. Lopez was unsatisfied. “Anything else? Any other ways of resolving differences ?”. Silence. Up goes Kakkerlak’s hand. “Victory and defeat”. Even the ROTC students just _stared._ ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651/40 "2003-03-25T20:44:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ftg \* > \*\*Please cite a major communist country that was overthrown by war. > > Franco died in his sleep. Fascism in Spain and Portugal failed without war. > > No war has _ever_ ended a political idea. Wars only affect particular regimes. We eliminated Hitler, we did not eliminate Fascism. A political idea dies because it is viewed as a bad idea by increasing numbers of people. \*\* I understand your point, but I think your distinction’s a bit too nice: it separates the idea from the people who have it. For many, Fascism became a “bad idea” mainly because it ultimately brought them military defeat. Indeed, the examples you give - Portugal and Spain - undermine you because those were the only fascist countries to survive WWII largely untouched, whereas Germany, Italy, Romania, Yugoslavia and Japan found themselves largely destroyed. Physical devastation is a powerful mind-changer. The fact that remnants still adhere to defeated philosophies doesn’t prove much of anything, other than that there’s not much difference between insanity and a minority of one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/except-for-ending-slavery-fascism-nazism-and-communism-war-has-not-solved-a-thing/163651.md?page=1)