# Exceptions to the i and e rule **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 26, 2001, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677 "2001-10-26T00:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Anubis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@Anubis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anubis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/1 "2001-10-26T00:26:06Z")
“I before E except after C”. Anyone know an exception to that rule? ---
**Author:** ![Cargogal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@Cargogal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cargogal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/2 "2001-10-26T00:29:01Z")
What was that question, neighbor? You should either seize the day or forfeit. It’s weird, how foreign these rules are to actualtiy. When I have more leisure, I’ll think of some; it will weigh on my conscience until then. It’s not an exact science, and I may have to counterfeit an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/3 "2001-10-26T00:31:29Z")
My mom is a reading teacher and she says that this is one of the worst rules. There are many, many exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Astroglide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@Astroglide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroglide)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/4 "2001-10-26T00:35:51Z")
I learned the rule as a little ditty that went: “I before E except after C, \*\* or when sounded as A as in neighbor or weigh\*\*” A little better? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/5 "2001-10-26T00:52:03Z")
Neither foreign counterfeiter could attain either weird height without forfeiting protein. My neighbor’s eight beige reindeer weigh too much to be sent by freight. ---
**Author:** ![MoodIndigo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@MoodIndigo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoodIndigo1)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/6 "2001-10-26T01:02:25Z")
I just wish people would remember to get “their” “weird” stuff right. Reading “thier” and “wierd” is simply painful. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/7 "2001-10-26T01:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MoodIndigo1 \* > \*\*I just wish people would remember to get “their” “weird” stuff right. Reading “thier” and “wierd” is simply painful. \*\* Certainly not as painful as reading about there other writing problems. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/8 "2001-10-26T01:52:25Z")
I did a “grep” (so I’m a geek) on my thesis. Overall I had twice as many exceptions to the rule as those fitting the rule. “Efficient” and friends won the day. But I never believed anything my grade school teachers told me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/9 "2001-10-26T02:02:55Z")
Persons seeking exception to this nefarious rule definitely need to visit [this rather humorous site.](http://www.psc.edu/~burkardt/wordplay/i_before_e.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/10 "2001-10-26T02:20:49Z")
Cargogal, well done. May I point out something? This rule applies only to words in which the ie/ei functions as a unit, producing a single sound. Words that have the i and e in separate syllables and/or making separate sounds are not subject to the rule, and thus are not exeptions. The following apparent exceptions aren’t. science: separate syllables, two sounds, and intervening /y/ sound. efficient: The ci make one sound, the e a second sound. This applies to any cie combination in which the ci makes the /sh/ sound, such as conscience. A majority of the “exceptions” on the web site Sacrlett linked to have the i and e in different syllables, so are not subject to the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/11 "2001-10-26T02:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > **May I point out something? This rule applies only to words in which the ie/ei functions as a unit, producing a single sound. Words that have the i and e in separate syllables and/or making separate sounds are not subject to the rule, and thus are not exeptions.** That makes sense, but I’ve never heard that! Somebody needs to put it into that little rhyme we all know! > [@](#): > > **A majority of the “exceptions” on the web site Sacrlett linked to** **Sacrlett**??? Sacre bleu! 😉 😉 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/12 "2001-10-26T02:34:22Z")
There’s “The Rule” and then there are other rules. No teacher of mine ever said anything about syllables. “Syllables Mick, syllables.” Paul Simon to Mickey Mantle. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/13 "2001-10-26T03:12:37Z")
The rule as I learned it was: i before e except after c _when the sound is “ee”_ So that negates all the neighbours and the counterfeiters and the science guys etc etc. Also the rule now rhymes. So I’d be interested if there are any exceptions to the rule that I learned. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/14 "2001-10-26T03:15:56Z")
I suppose “neither” and “either” _could_ still be exceptions although I’d prefer to see it as proof that they should be pronounced so as to rhyme with “glider” there by removing the pesky “ee” sound. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/15 "2001-10-26T03:48:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > **This rule applies only to words in which the ie/ei functions as a unit, producing a single sound.** Einstein wouldn’t’ve liked that rule. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/16 "2001-10-26T03:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skogcat \* > \*\*i before e except after c _when the sound is “ee”_ > > So I’d be interested if there are any exceptions to the rule that I learned. \*\* Caffeine, my favorite! Incidentally, I’ve found this rule to be helpful only when trying to spell words like “believe”, “receive” and “achieve”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/17 "2001-10-26T05:04:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Skogcat \* > > \*\*i before e except after c _when the sound is “ee”_ > > > > So I’d be interested if there are any exceptions to the rule that I learned. \*\* > > Caffeine, my favorite! Incidentally, I’ve found this rule to be helpful only when trying to spell words like “believe”, “receive” and “achieve”. \*\* Yes Caffeine, good one. I believe the rule is intended to help with those words you quote above rather than for words like “scientology” where the rule becomes: i after c if c is after s and i forms it’s own little syllable preceding e. or “neighbour” where the rule is: e before i where the i is 3 letters prior to b and the sound is reminiscent of a horse. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/18 "2001-10-26T20:14:26Z")
I learned the rule as: “I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in ‘neighbor’ and ‘weigh,’ or in words like ‘kaleidoscope,’ which are just memorized.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/19 "2001-10-26T20:19:27Z")
I learned the rule as: “I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in ‘neighbor’ and ‘weigh,’ or in words like ‘kaleidoscope,’ which are just memorized.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JJ\_Richard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@JJ\_Richard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JJ_Richard)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677/20 "2001-10-26T23:24:31Z")
For what it’s worth… According to the Fifth Edition of the Simon and Schuster Handbook for Writers (pg. 22c): * * * The ie, ei Rule The old rhyme for ie and ei is usually true: I before e [believe, field, grief] Except after c [ceiling, conceit], Or when sounded like ay [eight, vein], As in neighbor and weigh. You may want to memorize these major exceptions: ie: conscience, financier, science, species ei: either, neither, leisure, seize, conuterfeit, foreign, forfeit, sleight, weird * * * That’s a handy little book! It’s packed with usage notes such as the one above. I just got it used via [Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130214574/qid=1004138272/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_11_9/107-5139797-3553363) for about three dollars ($46.00) list. The used price is up to $15.00 now, but that’s still not too bad for such an excellent reference book. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exceptions-to-the-i-and-e-rule/89677.md?page=2)