# Excommunication **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 29, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290 "2014-04-29T17:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/21 "2014-05-12T18:01:19Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > You are _assumed_ to have automatically gone to Hell. It’s not the same thing. In the mind-world of the RCC, where hell is real and an actual place (or, it was when the rite of excommunication was developed), excommunicating someone was consigning them to hell, because it was denying them the sacraments. You are free to believe that hell is fiction, and excommunication is therefore meaningless, but in addressing the purpose of excommunication, you have to know how the RCC understands things. It’s like trying to understand why anyone confessed to being a witch in the 17th century among the Puritans. It was because once you were accused, you were probably going to be convicted and executed anyway, and the buried without prayers, in unconsecrated ground, which was another way of being consigned to hell. People who confessed could be forgiven, and then executed, buried with prayers, in the churchyard, and go to heaven. I’m Jewish, and don’t believe in hell either, but I allow for it within a certain reality in order to understand things, like the answer to the question of why the church would bother to excommunicate someone who had not attended services in years. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/22 "2014-05-12T18:19:12Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > It’s a big deal for Catholics, because if you die without having recently made confession or received communion (I think it’s in the past either one or two years), you automatically go to hell. An ex-communicant can’t receive sacraments, and so is basically being thrown into hell. The RCC assumes that an excommunicated person is going to hell because they’ve rejected fundamental catholic teaching. But it’s absolutely possible for an excommunicated person to reject what led them to be excommunicated in the first place and make themselves right with god all on their own. The assumption is that they’ll then go make themselves right with the church itself but if they got hit by a bus on the way to confession for the first time in 20 years, the RCC assumes god is not a dunderhead. qazwart, while there’s no central database as such, your baptismal parish keeps a record of your baptism. People who’ve decided to leave the church sometimes find it helpful to write a formal letter of resignation to be placed with their baptismal certificate so that a well meaning but clueless relative doesn’t have the option of giving them a catholic burial after they’ve died or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/23 "2014-05-12T19:30:02Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > I’m confused by this whole thread. Why bother. If you don’t want to be a Catholic, stop being a Catholic. I’m sure after your membership card expires, they take you off any mailing lists. > > Seriously, I know Jews who have converted, and never bother to tell anyone about it. I know Baptists who became Hindu and didn’t think of telling anyone. Even Mormons who convert to other religions or just lapse don’t bother to let their central Church know – and they do keep membership lists! > > Why is Catholicism so different? Why do so many Catholics not merely leave the faith, but really insist on letting the entire world know? Even with the latest sex scandals the government is not going to round of ordinary Catholics under the RICO act. There’s no reason you have to prove that you’re no longer a Catholic. As Cecil said, there’s no central membership list, and they’re not going to call you at dinner asking you to renew. > > So, what drives former Catholics to insist that they’re not simply going to stop showing up in Church, or even start showing up in another Church, or take a vow of fidelity to another god or set of gods, but to insist there has to be an official recognition from their former Church that they are no longer part of the flock? > > I know a lot of people from a lot of other religions who have fallen by the wayside or moved to another religion, but I only know Catholics who seem so insistent on an official break. It’s not uniquely an ex-Catholic thing. There are several ex-Mormons on the Dope ([myself included](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584504)) who took the time to send in a letter of resignation. From a practical standpoint, people get sick of representatives from their former faith tracking them down and trying to persuade them to return to the fold. I resigned from Mormonism so that my kids would not be targeted for conversion. Besides the practical reasons, some people just don’t like having their names on the rolls of an organization whose actions and doctrines they find repulsive. A lot of Mormons resigned because they didn’t want to be an official part of the organization that funded Prop 8. I can understand why ex-Catholics would not want to be counted as part of an organization that has protected child rapists. It doesn’t matter that “the government is not going to round [up] ordinary Catholics under the RICO act.” Some people simply don’t want their names on the membership lists. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/24 "2014-05-12T20:01:49Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > It’s not uniquely an ex-Catholic thing. There are several ex-Mormons on the Dope ([myself included](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584504)) who took the time to send in a letter of resignation. From a practical standpoint, people get sick of representatives from their former faith tracking them down and trying to persuade them to return to the fold. I resigned from Mormonism so that my kids would not be targeted for conversion. > > Besides the practical reasons, some people just don’t like having their names on the rolls of an organization whose actions and doctrines they find repulsive. A lot of Mormons resigned because they didn’t want to be an official part of the organization that funded Prop 8. I can understand why ex-Catholics would not want to be counted as part of an organization that has protected child rapists. It doesn’t matter that “the government is not going to round [up] ordinary Catholics under the RICO act.” Some people simply don’t want their names on the membership lists. I find it hard to believe that anyone leaving the Catholic church in modern times has ever been bothered by anyone other than their devout mother publicly praying for them to come back to the true faith. Yes, there are baptism records but that is all they are, records in some church somewhere. Historical documents. In the US anyway, Catholicism is not an evangelical religion and nobody will ever knock at your door, or even notice you don’t come to church anymore unless you go to the same church your mother goes to. Why people find it so important to call themselves ex-Catholics, recovering Catholics or whatever is a mystery to me. I’ve never met anyone who referred to themselves as an ex-Methodist or ex-Lutheran. As far as I know, they believe more or less the same things about heaven and hell. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/25 "2014-05-12T20:09:36Z")
You’d be wrong. My parent’s parish has had several attempts to have current members corral their fallen brethren and interrogate them about their lack of faith. So far the results have been lackluster because it’s pretty out of most catholic’s comfort zones, but who knows if that will change. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/26 "2014-05-12T21:53:38Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The RCC assumes that an excommunicated person is going to hell because they’ve rejected fundamental catholic teaching. But it’s absolutely possible for an excommunicated person to reject what led them to be excommunicated in the first place and make themselves right with god all on their own. The assumption is that they’ll then go make themselves right with the church itself but if they got hit by a bus on the way to confession for the first time in 20 years, the RCC assumes god is not a dunderhead. Sorry-- my knowledge of the church is mostly historical. I’m not surprised that re-communication, or whatever, is possible. That someone who intended to return and got hit by a bus on the way still got into heaven is news to me. The threat of damnation was the way the church kept power for so many centuries. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Why people find it so important to call themselves ex-Catholics, recovering Catholics or whatever is a mystery to me. I’ve never met anyone who referred to themselves as an ex-Methodist or ex-Lutheran. As far as I know, they believe more or less the same things about heaven and hell. In my experience, people who call themselves “recovering Catholics,” or some such thing, are people who were not merely baptized as RCs, and went to church on Christmas and Easter, but did 8 or 12 years of Catholic school, were alter boys, had their 1st communion and confirmation treated like accomplishments on par with college graduation, went to church not just on Sunday, but all the holy days of obligation, had parents who prayed the rosary regularly, and encouraged them to do the same, had icon or shrines to saints in the house, and a big picture of the Pope, etc. In Indiana, I’ve known some people who had crazy Apostolic Pentecostal upbringings, and being “former,” “ex-” or even “recovering” fundamentalists is part of their identity. I know a few people who are dedicated to a particular denomination, but a lot of people who are Protestants, and very devout, still don’t have a strong identity as a Methodist, or a Lutheran, or Presbyterian (exceptions: Southern Baptists, AME, Missouri Synod Lutherans), and might belong to several different denomination in their lives, as they move, and just find a church in town they like. It probably has to do with the RCC having a closed communion (IIRC, so does Missouri Synod Lutheran), while anyone baptised any type of Protestant can take communion in another Protestant church. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/27 "2014-05-12T22:13:17Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Sorry-- my knowledge of the church is mostly historical. I’m not surprised that re-communication, or whatever, is possible. That someone who intended to return and got hit by a bus on the way still got into heaven is news to me. The threat of damnation was the way the church kept power for so many centuries. It’s right there, even in the cheesy incense and candlesnuffing version. “until he shall recover himself from the toils of the devil and return to amendment and to penitence.” Most of the time excommunication is an automatic thing. In the eyes of the church, I’m excommunicated on account of I’m an apostate, not that anyone there knows it, I don’t think. But the moment I reject atheism and affirm my belief in jesus as the son of god and savior of mankind, I’d be right as rain, theologically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/28 "2014-05-12T23:40:31Z")
My great-great-grandfather, who was excommunicated some time around the Civil War, I think (and I might have left out a “great”-- I don’t have the family tree in front of me) actually got a piece of paper. “As of this date, no longer part of the body of Christ,” or something. I don’t know what it would have taken to become a Catholic in good standing, but he and my g-g-grandmother moved to New York, and he started going to shul with her. But, y’know, nun-napping. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/29 "2014-05-13T19:08:16Z")
Nun-napping? Is that like kidnapping, but with nuns instead of kids? ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/30 "2014-05-14T12:42:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You’d be wrong. My parent’s parish has had several attempts to have current members corral their fallen brethren and interrogate them about their lack of faith. So far the results have been lackluster because it’s pretty out of most catholic’s comfort zones, but who knows if that will change. I can understand that there are some religious figures who don’t seem to get the message. However, will officially resigning prevent these guys from their continuous harassment? The Mormons still come to my door, and I never had anything to do with them. For your _saviors_ who insist on rounding up their lost sheep. Maybe you can collect some religious pamphlets. When they come knocking on your door. Invite them in. Tell them that you’re glad they came because you are so concerned about their souls. Tell them that you know all about God and want to share with them. The important thing is to have the look in your eye that you’re both at peace in the world, and that you’re about to do some desperate action that will land you on the six o’clock news. Pass out the pamphlets, and make a big show about bolting the door behind them. Try to confiscate their cell phones. If they protest, start to cry and tell them you don’t want them to go to hell. Insist on praying for their souls. Tell them how much God loves them, yet will be sending them to burn for eternity. Start rambling on about you must follow what God tells you to do. Once you let them out, I bet they will never ever knock on your door again. Plus, they’ll also give you a wide berth at the supermarket. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/31 "2014-05-14T12:48:49Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > My great-great-grandfather, who was excommunicated some time around the Civil War, I think (and I might have left out a “great”-- I don’t have the family tree in front of me) actually got a piece of paper. “As of this date, no longer part of the body of Christ,”. Was this something officially from the Catholic Church, or was it the local priesthood peeved that your g-g-g-father was marrying out of the faith? Do you still have the paper? It would be interesting to have it framed, and then take it to the Antique Roadshow for evaluation. > [@](#): > > This family heirloom was from my Great-Great-Grandfather. He got this around 1860, and then passed it on to his son. I got it from my father. Look! It’s also signed by Abraham Lincoln! ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/32 "2014-05-14T17:44:41Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > I can understand that there are some religious figures who don’t seem to get the message. However, will officially resigning prevent these guys from their continuous harassment? The Mormons still come to my door, and I never had anything to do with them. The Mormon missionaries will still come to your door and mine when they’re canvassing the neighborhood. They don’t keep an opt-out list like the JWs do. But the missionaries and local leadership are no longer specifically targeting my family. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/33 "2014-05-18T14:37:43Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Nun-napping? Is that like kidnapping, but with nuns instead of kids? Just one nun. Postulant, actually, or novice-- I’m not sure. She wanted to leave (and was allowed to, supposedly, at that point), but they wouldn’t let her. Her father was my ggg-father’s best friend and drinking buddy. Anyway, she slipped a letter to someone, somehow, regarding not being allowed to leave (at mass, or in the confessional, I’ve heard the story both ways), and it reached her father. It wasn’t a big town. So he and his best friend decided to liberate her themselves. The convent was on an island (or it could have been some kind of peninsula, I guess, but the best access was by boat). Anyway, they commandeered a rowboat, which is to say they borrowed one without asking, and returned it before it was missed, but when the story came out, the owner still registered a complaint (which was his right, not disputing that). Anyway, they rowed over to the convent, went in, demanded best friend’s daughter, got her, and left. I’m not sure if their actual offense was nun-napping, or stealing a boat in order to walk into a convent, where they were forbidden to be, but they both got excommunicated. Not sure about the daughter. > [@qazwart](#): > > Was this something officially from the Catholic Church, or was it the local priesthood peeved that your g-g-g-father was marrying out of the faith? > > Do you still have the paper? It would be interesting to have it framed, and then take it to the Antique Roadshow for evaluation. I only saw it once, a long time ago. I’m sure one of my second cousins somewhere still has it, but I don’t know who. > [@qazwart](#): > > I can understand that there are some religious figures who don’t seem to get the message. However, will officially resigning prevent these guys from their continuous harassment? The Mormons still come to my door, and I never had anything to do with them. I have a sign on my door that says “I don’t want to convert to your religion. Really. No matter what it is.” In English and Spanish. Works great. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/34 "2014-05-26T16:49:29Z")
> [@ehamb](#): > > … > What is dubious? the fact that the catholic church does this, or that my citing of it is spurious? Again, google it. The burden of proof does not rest on my shoulders, does it? You chose to present the evidence that you did, and I chose to point out that it does not seem correct. In a website meant to “fight ignorance”, this is necessary; the fool who would believe such a statement uncritically is put on notice to verify it for himself. In general, I find it rude to ask for a “cite”; if you had wished to provide one, you would have. As such, I specifically did not make such a request, but if I had, you would of course be free to ignore it. Adding any information to this site is purely voluntary, but to leave apparently incorrect information unchallenged is a cardinal sin! ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/35 "2014-05-26T16:59:48Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > In the mind-world of the RCC, where hell is real and an actual place (or, it was when the rite of excommunication was developed), excommunicating someone was consigning them to hell, because it was denying them the sacraments. > > You are free to believe that hell is fiction, and excommunication is therefore meaningless, but in addressing the purpose of excommunication, you have to know how the RCC understands things. > … That is not fully correct; if an excommunicated person goes to hell, it would be because of whatever sin got them excommunicated, or any subsequent sin. Excommunication is meant to direly warn them of the nature of whatever sin was committed. It is meant to prevent a facile, walk into the confessional – walk out kind of non-repentance that allows them to keep sinning. The excommunicated person must ask for the excommunication to be lifted, demonstrating significant remorse or correction of whatever behavior got him there. It is reserved for only grievous crimes or religious malfeasance. Excommunication is meant to motivate repentance, rather than to “consign them to Hell”. > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > … > In my experience, people who call themselves “recovering Catholics,” or some such thing, are people who were not merely baptized as RCs, … In my experience, people who call themselves “recovering Catholics,” are whiny and not particularly interesting… ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/36 "2014-05-26T17:01:47Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/37 "2014-05-26T17:07:43Z")
> [@ehamb](#): > > … > [Code of Canon Law: Table of Contents](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM) > “Can. 1369 A person who in a public show or speech, in published writing, or in other uses of the instruments of social communication utters blasphemy, gravely injures good morals, expresses insults, or excites hatred or contempt against religion or the Church is to be punished with a just penalty.” > … > Cheers again. Signing such a list is probably not enough to trigger such a penalty; operating such a website _might_. As I explained above, excommunication is about motivating a return to the church; excommunicating those who wish to leave would be counterproductive to that end. Again, this is not personal. But to leave potentially incorrect claims unchallenged only invites the ignorant to believe them uncritically. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/38 "2014-05-26T17:11:28Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > … > In my experience, people who call themselves “recovering Catholics,” are whiny and not particularly interesting… A cheap shot, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/39 "2014-05-26T21:07:45Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > A cheap shot, my apologies. Talking about cheap shots… [ul] [li] A _reformed alcoholic_ is a person who no longer drinks alcohol.[/li][li] A _reformed criminal_ is a person who no longer lives a life a crime.[/li][li] A _Reformed Jew_ is a person who…[/li][/ul] Hey, it gets big laughs in [Borough Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough_Park,_Brooklyn). For those who don’t know Borough Park… > [@](#): > > _“So how was your trip to Jerusalem?”_ > > _“It was okay, but it’s no Borough Park”_ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290/40 "2014-05-26T23:22:23Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > You are _assumed_ to have automatically gone to Hell. It’s not the same thing. Assumed into Hell? Isn’t that a movie trope? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excommunication/687290.md?page=3)