# Excuse me, but doyou HAVE to make your sentences so hard to figure out? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 16, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228 "2010-01-16T20:19:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/21 "2010-01-16T22:19:54Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I had no particular reaction to it other than the “is was” typo. While commas or other kinds of restructuring could have been usefully employed, I didn’t have any feeling of the sentence as written being a burden; I think you’re being overly sensitive. I had to read it twice to understand it myself. Isn’t “this this” also a typo in there? Or is that meant to be read as two separate thises? A few commas wouldn’t have hurt, either. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/22 "2010-01-16T22:22:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Isn’t “this this” also a typo in there? You’re right; “this this” is also a typo, but one my eyes glossed right over, as famously sometimes happens with erroneously duplicated words for whatever reason. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/23 "2010-01-16T22:52:01Z")
I really think it’s the “this this” and the “is was” that make that sentence so hard to figure out. Fix that, and I wouldn’t have any problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/24 "2010-01-16T23:10:26Z")
Well, I may be in the minority here, but I think that just occasionally it is ok to deliberately construct an overly complex sentence like the one referenced in the OP for the ‘effect’ of conveying a piece of information in a more ‘refined’ way than usual. I think the error is not in the person who wrote it but in the people who are fussy about how difficult it is to read. I think "That you feel this this common as dirt expression which was often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate or an illumination of your father’s sexual inclinations is bizarre. " Looks ‘nicer’ than “It’s bizarre that you’ve implied this expression makes your father out to be a pedophile” Or other possible ‘simpler’ ways of making the same point. The ‘complicated’ version makes a more refined point. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/25 "2010-01-17T00:12:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > If only the author of the 46-word sentence had made such eloquent use of commas. Eloquence and $1.98 will get you a cup of coffee these days. About all the prestige or security the English language offers any more is to those who can use it as a kind of abstract Tinkertoy set. Even that requires years of underpaid overwork to have a shot at a professorship. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/26 "2010-01-17T00:38:22Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Male him diagram the sentence…THAT’ll show him. Now that’s a difficult sentence to parse. . .😛 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/27 "2010-01-17T03:12:31Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Well, I may be in the minority here, but I think that just occasionally it is ok to deliberately construct an overly complex sentence like the one referenced in the OP for the ‘effect’ of conveying a piece of information in a more ‘refined’ way than usual. I think the error is not in the person who wrote it but in the people who are fussy about how difficult it is to read. > > I think "That you feel this this common as dirt expression which was often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate or an illumination of your father’s sexual inclinations is bizarre. " > > Looks ‘nicer’ than > > “It’s bizarre that you’ve implied this expression makes your father out to be a pedophile” > > Or other possible ‘simpler’ ways of making the same point. The ‘complicated’ version makes a more refined point. You’re not the only one. I knew the writing was for effect. I think sometimes people get too worked up over clarity in prose, and forget that writing also has stylistic purposes. Still, even a stylistic point, it needs balance in the predicate. You’ve went out of your way to describe the subject in detail, but left with a rather vague predicate. To fix this (and add a bit of clarity) without actually adding anything, I’d change it to: That you feel that this common-as-dirt expression, often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children, needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate, and possibly an illumination of your father’s sexual inclinations–that is what I find bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/28 "2010-01-17T03:38:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That you feel that this common-as-dirt expression, often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children, needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate, and possibly an illumination of your father’s sexual inclinations–that is what I find bizarre. What is this compliment? I am now curious enough to ask, though not to dig for it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/29 "2010-01-17T03:43:59Z")
I support this rant. I don’t want to work that hard at understanding what you’re trying to say - do your own work and make your sentences understandable. No, let me clarify - I WON’T work that hard at understanding what you’re trying to say - I’ll move on and read something I can understand. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/30 "2010-01-17T03:54:32Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > What is this compliment? I am now curious enough to ask, though not to dig for it. Nevermind; found it naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/31 "2010-01-17T04:00:33Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I know entire academic disciplines, thousands of published writers strong, who would disagree. > > Although if you tried to pin them down on whether complex thought actually _requires_ convoluted language, all but a few dedicated linguist-philosophers would change the subject on you so fast you’d smell the burning rubber. > > What it comes down to - at least in academia - is that the world of ideas is an elite club, and the steeper the intellectual dues, the better. Clarity, often, amounts to giving away the store. You need to more specific than that because I am unaware of any such discipline and all of the disciplines that I _am_ aware of place a high value on clear and succinct writing, if only in the interest of very limited publication space. As it stands, you seem to be taking a general stab at academic writing that is not accurate and also not founded on anything. I hope that these sentences meet the standards of understandable writing. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/32 "2010-01-17T05:58:38Z")
It’s a perfectly cromulent sentence. I had exactly zero trouble parsing it, and I think it nicely expressed the nuances of the poster’s thoughts. Then again, I spent a good bit of time in academia, so to me, **astro** ’s opus seems like Hemingway in comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/33 "2010-01-17T10:22:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Holy Zeus. I must have left the door to the resurrection chamber open. Now [Strunk the Revenant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strunk) is on the loose! I have a copy of “The Elements of Style”. I might cry. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/34 "2010-01-17T11:20:07Z")
Quick, before E.B. White escapes too! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/35 "2010-01-17T11:36:01Z")
See what this has come to? I am sitting here crying and my version is only the 1979 edition. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/36 "2010-01-17T19:28:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Quick, before E.B. White escapes too! 😛 He already got free, the wiley bastard. I should’ve known better than to use “Some Pig” as the passcode to the door. I was forced to use the remote destruct feature. Unfortunately, both Princess Diana and Jayne Mansfield escaped as well, and I’m not sure how I’ll go about finding them. I was so busy making sure they were both reincarnated at maximum hotness that I hadn’t had time to insert the subcutaneous radio tags, much less the remote destruct. I don’t think they even had clothes yet. I apologize for unleashing the two of them naked onto the streets. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/37 "2010-01-18T01:18:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > He already got free, the wiley bastard. I should’ve known better than to use “Some Pig” as the passcode to the door. I was forced to use the remote destruct feature. > > Unfortunately, both Princess Diana and Jayne Mansfield escaped as well, and I’m not sure how I’ll go about finding them. I was so busy making sure they were both reincarnated at maximum hotness that I hadn’t had time to insert the subcutaneous radio tags, much less the remote destruct. I don’t think they even had clothes yet. > > I apologize for unleashing the two of them naked onto the streets. I blame you for Lord Lucan and Shergar as well. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/38 "2010-01-18T01:34:35Z")
I’d appreciat a link to the original thread. It sounds lke the topic is similar to another one where people are dancing around the appropriateness of the word “panties” for this person or that to use. > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > What it comes down to - at least in academia - is that the world of ideas is an elite club, and the steeper the intellectual dues, the better. Clarity, often, amounts to giving away the store. That is BS from someone on the outside wanting in. Not all communication need happen in short direct sentences. Not all ideas are expressible that way. So, if you are not facile with complex sentences and paragraphs and other grammatical and rhetorical constructions, that is the barrier which you can’t get across. This is true anywhere complex topics, with lots of nuance, is discussed, at least in English. Why? Because English is a low-context language, where we have to express what we mean directly (compared to high context languages such as Japanese.). If what we mean to say contains more background and nuance than you are comfortable with, whose fault is that? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/39 "2010-01-18T01:40:01Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Or other possible ‘simpler’ ways of making the same point. The ‘complicated’ version makes a more refined point. Exactly. Reading is a skill set, and facility with uncommon rhetorical devices when see, often in combination with other rare devices, is not expected to be found in every reader. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/40 "2010-01-18T01:47:16Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > About all the prestige or security the English language offers any more is to those who can use it as a kind of abstract Tinkertoy set. Even that requires years of underpaid overwork to have a shot at a professorship. Damn that information society! And you are wrong about professorship being the only place where such ability to express complex thoughts, in English or otherwise, is valued. The equivalent construction in computer software construction, testing, or analysis would not even be advanced undergraduate level. Now, not every such engineer is a great English writer, but _all_ of them can track the various concepts in relationships the way the original author did. So I don’t think the sentence expresses anything all that advanced, honestly. If readers encounter stuff like that and want to be able to read it, practice practice practice is what it takes. Maybe advanced English as a Foreign Language texts are a good place to find complex sentence structure drills? That is pretty much how it went for me learning to read Japanese - seek out drills and texts with increasingly complex, but also less common, sentence structures, and study them. I am sure it is the same for English. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228.md?page=3)