# Excuse me, but doyou HAVE to make your sentences so hard to figure out? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 16, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228 "2010-01-16T20:19:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/61 "2010-01-19T08:08:01Z")
I apologize for causing [such consternation](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJTyjGjz5TM). I try to be good and enclose my parentheticals within commas, but occasionally you get distracted by something shiny, and… well life happens. Sometimes you get to the end of a post, and you forget you need to go back and clean up the beginning. When you were diligently diagramming sentences for me in high school, it’s true that I wasn’t really paying attention. I was watching your chubby little milfy ass fill out that sensible wool skirt, and fantasizing about bending you over your desk after school. And so, in fairness, I do have to agree with the personal characterizations that have been made of me in this thread. I am an intellectually slack grammar tard, punctuating as it pleases me. A lazy rhetorical snail I leave my fetid mucosal slime trail of broken sentences, and dangling participles in my wake as I ooze through the thread. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/62 "2010-01-19T08:14:05Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I apologize for causing [such consternation](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJTyjGjz5TM). I try to be good and enclose my parentheticals within commas, but occasionally you get distracted by something shiny, and… well life happens. Sometimes you get to the end of a post, and you forget you need to go back and clean up the beginning. > > When you were diligently diagramming sentences for me in high school, it’s true that I wasn’t really paying attention. I was watching your chubby little milfy ass fill out that sensible wool skirt, and fantasizing about bending you over your desk after school. > > And so, in fairness, I do have to agree with the personal characterizations that have been made of me in this thread. I am an intellectually slack grammar tard, punctuating as it pleases me. A lazy rhetorical snail I leave my fetid mucosal slime trail of broken sentences, and dangling participles in my wake as I ooze through the thread. That, being the that that is this. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/63 "2010-01-19T19:11:36Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Thanks; sorry if I was snippy about it. S’alright. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/64 "2010-01-19T19:27:16Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > But what people? All people of average reading abilities. If I was just writing for myself, I’d write in a blog. I’d probably still write as readable as I could, because it’s my habit (and I consider it a good one). > [@](#): > > Awkward is in the eyes of the beholder. I am quite sure that for some topics, the audience can be expected to be able to handle complex sentences with 10 dollar vocabulary. > > Other topics and audiences require Cat in the Hat level writing. > > Me, I figure if the topic is complex enough to generate complex thoughts for me, then it is appropriate to have complex sentences to express the thoughts. > > YMMV. > > We all have our limits. I remember trying to read Gravity’s Rainbow and not getting very far, for example. > > But when I edited a PhD dissertation a few years ago by someone from a top program. Then last year I had the chance to see one from a colleague in the same field from a bottom rank program. > > Trust me, simple sentences are not always going to express what you want them to express. > > Write for the audience you have, and if you don’t have the audience or know it, write for the audience you want. > > That is good writing advice. > > Great! You are not comfortable using them and/or your audience is not comfortable reading them. Glad that works for you. > > Too bad you don’t seem aware that that is not the only audience available. I don’t worry about my vocabulary; with this crowd, I use any word that fits. Vocabulary is not the same as readability. I’ll agree that sometimes you need a more complex sentence, but as a sentence gets more complex, you as the author have to be even _more_ on top of readability, using structure, commas, semi-colons, parentheses, and dashes as required to help your readers out. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/65 "2010-01-19T19:38:44Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > All people of average reading abilities. If I was just writing for myself, I’d write in a blog. I’d probably still write as readable as I could, because it’s my habit (and I consider it a good one). > > I don’t worry about my vocabulary; with this crowd, I use any word that fits. Vocabulary is not the same as readability. I’ll agree that sometimes you need a more complex sentence, but as a sentence gets more complex, you as the author have to be even _more_ on top of readability, using structure, commas, semi-colons, parentheses, and dashes as required to help your readers out. So, either the author DID help the reader out, and this was exactly what he wanted to say to the reader, or what, you came across a poor sentence, and you are bailing on it. Either way, so what? I sincerely don’t get it. If you are not interested in the topic, of that thread any longer because there was a convoluted sentence, why is that any different from literally every other thread in which every member here decided they are eventually not interested in it? All thread die, and they die because readers lose interest for one reason or another. If this is your reason, so what? I join or don’t join threads all the time based, in part at least, on the style of the writing there, doesn’t everyone? Too simple, too complex, unusual vocabulary, it is all fair game. We all do it every visit here. I guess I don’t get why this one sentence is so notable? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/66 "2010-01-19T19:57:52Z")
If someone doesn’t agree with what you wrote, that is fine; they can ignore it, or they can continue the discussion about it. If someone doesn’t read what you wrote because it’s too badly written (as with the example sentence in the OP), communication has **ended**. You, the author, ended it with your inability to express yourself. At least, that’s how I look at it. When I’m speaking with someone in real life, and I don’t see the light of understanding come on in their eyes when I tell them something, I will try to rephrase it so they do understand it. I don’t just say the same thing again and blame them for not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/67 "2010-01-19T20:07:13Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If someone doesn’t agree with what you wrote, that is fine; they can ignore it, or they can continue the discussion about it. If someone doesn’t read what you wrote because it’s too badly written (as with the example sentence in the OP), communication has **ended**. So what? Why does it concern you as a reader if an author stops communicating with you? It is going to end at some point, so why are you so concerned about which point it happens? If the sentence is not for you, if it doesn’t speak to you, then so what? > [@](#): > > You, the author, ended it with your inability to express yourself. So what? 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the web is exactly that to any reader whatsoever, not even taking into account foreign language issues. > [@](#): > > At least, that’s how I look at it. When I’m speaking with someone in real life, and I don’t see the light of understanding come on in their eyes when I tell them something, I will try to rephrase it so they do understand it. I don’t just say the same thing again and blame them for not getting it. But if you are speaking to a large anonymous crowd though some remote broadcast mechanism, do you worry about each individual listener to the same degree? I guess I don’t get your broader point. Are your feelings hurt because an author write a sentence you couldn’t decipher? Did it really ruin the overall discussion for you? Is it really a problem for the author, or are you reflecting something about your own internal expectations that it is impossible for every author to know about, let alone abide by? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/68 "2010-01-19T20:09:27Z")
I think it is the author’s problem; he is obviously _trying_ to communicate, or he wouldn’t bother writing a post. Isn’t it great that we’re both so readable that we’re able to have this discussion? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/69 "2010-01-19T20:20:41Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think it is the author’s problem; he is obviously _trying_ to communicate, or he wouldn’t bother writing a post. But why is it the author’s problem if he loses one reader, or in particular YOU? Maybe he gained another reader or even more with that sentence. Why are you so invested in a personal relationship with an author, and expecting the same from him, that’s what I don’t get. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it great that we’re both so readable that we’re able to have this discussion? 🙂 No, not really. I don’t feel we are converging on an understanding at all. You are not expressing what caused you to be so concerned to me, not matter how simple or complex your sentences are, I just don’t get it, and soon after a few more tries max, I am going to give up. Clearly it is on your mind, but your sentences are not expressing to this reader what your real concern is. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/70 "2010-01-19T20:38:14Z")
I’m not particularly concerned; if an author won’t make the effort to make his writing readable, I won’t make an effort to read it. Seems simple to me. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/71 "2010-01-19T21:02:35Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not particularly concerned; if an author won’t make the effort to make his writing readable, I won’t make an effort to read it. Seems simple to me. Which is perfectly reasonable, even though diametrically opposed to your OP. If it is not readable to you, then no one will complain if you don’t read it. Others seem to have managed OK. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/72 "2010-01-19T21:55:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > As mentioned above, I honestly didn’t mean to put this in the Pit, which is why I did not link to the postor thread. I have nothing against the Doper who wrote the original sentence. Besides, I’m sure I’ve penned much worse things just this week. Based upon this revelation, the posting of this thread is bizarre! ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/73 "2010-01-19T23:37:21Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not buying the idea that a sentence that is dense and virtually impossible to understand is making a more refined point; in my opinion, a difficult to read sentence (paragraph/essay/novel) indicates that the author needs to work on their writing skills, not my reading skills. I don’t just type out any old thing and hit “post.” I actually re-read what I’ve written, and if there is awkward stuff in it, I’ll re-arrange things and make it more readable. That’s MY job as the writer. > > For example, in the example sentence in the OP, the writer could have made his sentence much easier to read simply by changing a couple of words around: > “That you feel this this common as dirt expression which is was often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate or an illumination of your father’s sexual inclinations is bizarre.” > becomes, > “It’s bizarre that you feel this common as dirt expression which was often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate or an illumination of your father’s sexual inclination.” {Corrections mine} > > It’s still wordy as hell, but it takes you on a straight path from start to finish, instead of dancing around up and down and back and around, and you’ve forgotten where you started by the time you get to the end. The way the author chose to use an awkward structure instead of an easier to read structure tells me that either he is a bad writer, or he is a pretentious writer (which in some ways is the same thing, I’ll grant you). “It’s bizarre that you feel this common as dirt expression which was often expressed by older men of a certain era as a compliment to female children needs to be deconstructed and teased into something inappropriate or an illumination of your father’s sexual inclination.” No, that rewrite just won’t do. It just doesn’t sing, it doesn’t dance, there’s no seltzer in it’s pants. It’s a brutal, gnarled battering ram of a sentence. It’s lumpy like hurry up oatmeal, and assaults the ear like the rusty bang of two huge railroad freight car couplings slamming together. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/74 "2010-01-19T23:46:34Z")
How about this: “You’re fucking weird.” Concise. To the point. What more do you need? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/75 "2010-01-20T00:19:46Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > How about this: “You’re fucking weird.” > > Concise. To the point. What more do you need? I like it! I want you to be my wingman when we hit the cougar clubs. “Hey lady, see that bald guy over there telling some long winded story about a boa constrictor and a chicken house rat?” " Yes" “Take him home and get busy!” “What the…?” “Now!.. Go!” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/76 "2010-01-20T01:57:05Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Which is perfectly reasonable, even though diametrically opposed to your OP. > > If it is not readable to you, then no one will complain if you don’t read it. > > Others seem to have managed OK. My OP? You mean my first post in this thread? What the hell did I say a couple of days ago? {Goes back and looks} Okay, post #29 - I said, “I support this rant. I don’t want to work that hard at understanding what you’re trying to say - do your own work and make your sentences understandable. No, let me clarify - I WON’T work that hard at understanding what you’re trying to say - I’ll move on and read something I can understand.” That’s almost exactly what I just said in post #70. Colour me 😕 **astro** - a brutal, gnarled battering ram of a sentence? You flatter me, sir! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/77 "2010-01-20T02:01:40Z")
Yes, I lost track of the OP. Sorry. May you never be accused of worse than being the OP in this thread 🙂 Still, my broader point was why do you feel that any author owes it to you, an unseen and random potential reader, to make perfect sense to you personally, above all other goals, or even among all other goals the author might have? Why YOU? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/78 "2010-01-20T02:50:41Z")
Because I am the centre of my universe, just like everyone. 🙂 No, actually, my position is that an author has a responsibility to ALL potential unseen readers, not just me. An author can have many goals with his writing, but in my opinion, one of the first and most important of them should be to be readable. [This is what I’m talking about:](http://www.writershelper.com/readability.html) > [@](#): > > If your ideas are complex, you need to make your writing simple. Your writing should be clear so your ideas can shine through. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/79 "2010-01-20T03:37:26Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Because I am the centre of my universe, just like everyone. 🙂 Oh, why didn’t you say so? 🙂 > [@](#): > > No, actually, my position is that an author has a responsibility to ALL potential unseen readers, not just me. An equal responsibility? > [@](#): > > [This is what I’m talking about:](http://www.writershelper.com/readability.html) But maybe the reader who can’t understand a given sentence is not really among the target audience even if s/he stumbles on it. E.g. I can go grab a biochemistry journal at the library, and it won;t make a lick of sense even though the forms and grammar will all be familiar. Is the author obliged to provide all material to make it “simple” for me? I think not. If I want to understand the point, I will find a way. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228/80 "2010-01-20T15:15:49Z")
Gonna have to agree with **Skald** on this one. Would it kill people to double-check their posts for readability? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-doyou-have-to-make-your-sentences-so-hard-to-figure-out/525228.md?page=5)