# Excuse me, but when did GPS become a valid legal identifier of a property? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 27, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644 "2013-07-27T01:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/181 "2013-07-31T22:14:13Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And I hope they find another local bank for their banking needs. That could be a problem in Wellston, Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/182 "2013-07-31T22:43:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That could be a problem in Wellston, Ohio. [Milton Banking Company.](https://www.themiltonbank.com/index.php) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/183 "2013-07-31T22:47:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And I hope they find another local bank for their banking needs. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/184 "2013-07-31T22:56:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I kinda thought this was explained. The statute requires: “1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another”, which, by my reading, means that the defendant knew the land was the premises of another. There isn’t any evidence that the people who entered the property knew it wasn’t the bank’s property, so they didn’t have the criminal state of mind necessary to commit the offense. I suppose you could argue that the law only requires knowing entry and the defendant’s state of mind regarding ownership is irrelevant, but I can’t find any caselaw to support that idea at all and such a reading flies in the face of the usual mens rea requirement. Maybe you have some caselaw supporting the idea that simply entering property is the only intent you need for a criminal trespass violation. But there is evidence. It’s been established that the house numbers of both the correct house and the incorrect house were clearly and prominently displayed, and that the crew’s orders had the correct house number listed. The only way it could have been any clearer would be if Obi Wan had been there saying “This isn’t the house you’re looking for.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/185 "2013-07-31T22:57:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why? Because The First National Bank of Wellston has demonstrated they are too stupid to continue doing business. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/186 "2013-07-31T22:59:54Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > This is quite possible. In my experience, many people tend to greatly overvalue the worth of their belongings. Then again, the cost of replacing everything is bound to be far, far higher than its resale value. The value may not be so much on the items themselves, seeing as most of them would probably be worth little if anything at resale, but on the the comforts and conveniences those items provide. I don’t think $18K is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/187 "2013-07-31T23:03:43Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The trouble with charging them with a crime is that there’s no intent. They all genuinely believed they were doing something completely legal. Get rid of intent, and minor mixups that have nothing to do with a bank throwing all your stuff away suddenly become criminal. I think criminal prosecution would be counterproductive. If I were the victim, I wouldn’t want the responsible party thrown in jail nearly as much as I’d want to be compensated. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/188 "2013-07-31T23:14:43Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > But there is evidence. It’s been established that the house numbers of both the correct house and the incorrect house were clearly and prominently displayed, and that the crew’s orders had the correct house number listed. So you think that, despite the statements of the bank, that the people who did this knew they were entering a house the bank didn’t own and knowingly took the property of someone else and destroyed it? Why, in your scenario, do you think they did this? Merry prank? They really liked destroying other people’s property? Grand conspiracy against nurses? Suffice it to say, I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the people thought they were entering bank property and cleaning it out, and I have a really hard time believing they actually meant to take and destroy this woman’s property. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/189 "2013-08-01T00:21:10Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Then again, the cost of replacing everything is bound to be far, far higher than its resale value. The value may not be so much on the items themselves, seeing as most of them would probably be worth little if anything at resale, but on the the comforts and conveniences those items provide. I don’t think $18K is enough. I have 10 pairs of pants. New, they cost me about $700. Now, they are worn to various degrees, and yes, they are worth less. Let’s say they’re now worth only $200. So, if a company destroys my pants, they can either pay me $700 to replace them with new ones, or they can pay me the actual value ($200), plus they can pay me my cost of going all over town for the next two weeks and looking for suitable used replacements. My time is not free. That will cost them $600, or $800 in total. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/190 "2013-08-01T00:27:54Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So you think that, despite the statements of the bank, that the people who did this knew they were entering a house the bank didn’t own and knowingly took the property of someone else and destroyed it? I think they did not follow normal business practices that a reasonable person in the business of foreclosure would have done. At a civil trial, a parade of foreclosure experts testifying that using a GPS as the sole instrument to identify a property for the purposes of foreclosure is the single stupidest thing they have ever heard of would go a long way to convince a judge to find in favor of the plaintif. It’s just a step above heading down the street and picking a house at random. No reasonable person would consider this method reliable. There is an expectation that a bank will follow normal business practices when seizing a foreclosed house. Essentially taking houses at random is not a normal business practice, and cannot be allowed to continue without a penalty of some sort. If the bank is not penalized, they can continue to use idiotic methods to identify houses, and then just say “whoops, my bad” , when they screw up again and again and again. Stupidity is really not a great defense here. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/191 "2013-08-01T00:44:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So you think that, despite the statements of the bank, that the people who did this knew they were entering a house the bank didn’t own and knowingly took the property of someone else and destroyed it? > > Why, in your scenario, do you think they did this? Merry prank? They really liked destroying other people’s property? Grand conspiracy against nurses? > > Suffice it to say, I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the people thought they were entering bank property and cleaning it out, and I have a really hard time believing they actually meant to take and destroy this woman’s property. Again, her house is clearly marked 514. The house they were supposed to clean out was 509, which is also clearly marked. That leaves two choices: either they saw the address was wrong and went in anyway, or they knowingly entered a house without bothering to check the number. Either way, it doesn’t support their claim that they honestly thought they had the right house. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/192 "2013-08-01T00:47:16Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Because The First National Bank of Wellston has demonstrated they are too stupid to continue doing business. Why, because two low level contractors made a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/193 "2013-08-01T00:50:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why, because two low level contractors made a mistake? For hiring idiots, yes. And for not training them properly in how to do business. And for not settling right away for what was a VERY reasonable amount. It is this third one that indicates how very, very stupid they are. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/194 "2013-08-01T00:50:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why, because two low level contractors made a mistake? It was the bank’s response that turned everyone against them. (the bank) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/195 "2013-08-01T00:52:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think they did not follow normal business practices that a reasonable person in the business of foreclosure would have done. > > At a civil trial, a parade of foreclosure experts testifying that using a GPS as the sole instrument to identify a property for the purposes of foreclosure is the single stupidest thing they have ever heard of would go a long way to convince a judge to find in favor of the plaintif. It’s just a step above heading down the street and picking a house at random. No reasonable person would consider this method reliable. > > There is an expectation that a bank will follow normal business practices when seizing a foreclosed house. Essentially taking houses at random is not a normal business practice, and cannot be allowed to continue without a penalty of some sort. > > If the bank is not penalized, they can continue to use idiotic methods to identify houses, and then just say “whoops, my bad” , when they screw up again and again and again. Stupidity is really not a great defense here. Besides the GPS they also: Interviewed a neighbor who confirmed the house was unlived in, Verified the power was off Found the front door was unlocked And confirmed the house appeared abandoned. Why was her power off? Why was he door unlocked? Why hadn’t she been living there recently? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/196 "2013-08-01T00:56:50Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > For hiring idiots, yes. And for not training them properly in how to do business. And for not settling right away for what was a VERY reasonable amount. > > It is this third one that indicates how very, very stupid they are. The amount appears outrageous to me. She had for all practical purposes abandoned the property. Hell, hobos could have been looting her shit for a month. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/197 "2013-08-01T01:01:35Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It was the bank’s response that turned everyone against them. (the bank) Yes, those horrible, horrible people. How dare they admit their mistake, apologize profusely, and make a good faith offer of restitution ? :rolleyes: Look, the only reason anyone cares about this or that we even heard of it was that some dudes think all banks are teh EVIL!! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/198 "2013-08-01T01:15:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Besides the GPS they also: > Interviewed a neighbor who confirmed the house was unlived in, > Verified the power was off > Found the front door was unlocked > And confirmed the house appeared abandoned. > > Why was her power off? Why was he door unlocked? Why hadn’t she been living there recently? Too bad they didn’t read the freaking house number. Again, we just have to look at what is a standard business practice for a (real) bank when they foreclose. This is what would be looked at in a lawsuit. “Ask a neighbor”… Seriously? You’d seriously go in front of a judge and say “well, they asked a neighbor if the random house was OK to walk into.”? Really? You think this is standard business practice for a foreclosure? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/199 "2013-08-01T01:17:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Look, the only reason anyone cares about this or that we even heard of it was that some dudes think all banks are teh EVIL!! No, however some businesses (even banks) can be “teh STUPID”, and they need to have the proper financial penalties levied against them to convince them to get smarter or go out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/200 "2013-08-01T01:19:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The amount appears outrageous to me. She had for all practical purposes abandoned the property. Hell, hobos could have been looting her shit for a month. I would ask 18K if a random bunch of strangers from a bank came in and took my hall runner. It does not matter if she was there or not. It matters not if the door was unlocked or not. She did not give them permission to remove her stuff without permission. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=11)