# Excuse me, but when did GPS become a valid legal identifier of a property? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 27, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644 "2013-07-27T01:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/241 "2013-08-02T04:32:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Hey just another question. > Is the county DA or state AG coming out with any statements on this? Probably most likely not… ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/242 "2013-08-02T18:45:29Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Hey just another question. > Is the county DA or state AG coming out with any statements on this? > [@slm2955](#): > > Probably most likely not… They have now. Looks like there may be charges filed after all. [http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2013/07/30/mcarthur-vinton-county-prosecutor-considers-charges-after-home-was-wrongly-repossessed.html](http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2013/07/30/mcarthur-vinton-county-prosecutor-considers-charges-after-home-was-wrongly-repossessed.html) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/243 "2013-08-02T18:56:12Z")
I’m trying to find a case where a repo man was arrested for taking the wrong car and coming up blank. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/244 "2013-08-02T19:07:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m trying to find a case where a repo man was arrested for taking the wrong car and coming up blank. As pointed out in my thread on pirate towers, even when caught committing GTA and illegally destroying a person’s car no charges were filed so I doubt you’d find anything. But my (unfortunate) experience with repo men is that they triple check everything and are very careful with personal items. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/245 "2013-08-02T19:09:32Z")
Just pay the lady the damn $18K already, willya? Is it really worth this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/246 "2013-08-02T19:17:40Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > They have now. Looks like there may be charges filed after all. > > [http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2013/07/30/mcarthur-vinton-county-prosecutor-considers-charges-after-home-was-wrongly-repossessed.html](http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2013/07/30/mcarthur-vinton-county-prosecutor-considers-charges-after-home-was-wrongly-repossessed.html) There will be no convictions, unless facts emerge that substantially change the story we’ve heard so far. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/247 "2013-08-02T20:04:04Z")
The new article does clear up some questions from earlier in the thread. The police report said, “Mrs. Barnett had not been living there at that residence due to a divorce, therefore no one was living there and that she returned to start moving her stuff back inside.” That might explain why the utilities were off and the neighbors reported the house was empty. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/248 "2013-08-05T14:41:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Suspending the presumption of innocence is one of the consequences? No, getting sued is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/249 "2013-08-05T16:34:27Z")
Then I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here: > [@Sailboat](#): > > We’ve discussed these sorts of seizures before, and I felt then, as I do now, that some people seem too ready to exempt the corporation on the issue of “intent.” The intent issue only applies to a criminal prosecution. The civil action will proceed on a negligence basis, which doesn’t require intent. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/250 "2013-08-06T20:42:24Z")
Since intent has been alleged in this thread to be a necessity for charging someone with a crime, rather than merely opening the door to seeking civil damages, I should note [this case](http://www.beeson4law.com/blog/2013/05/babysitter-accused-of-negligence-in-4-year-olds-dog-bite-death.shtml): > [@](#): > > A little girl died last week in Prairie City, Illinois. While she and her brother were at a babysitter’s house on April 22, the babysitter’s dog bit the child so seriously that she had to be taken to the hospital by air ambulance. The 24-year old babysitter is now facing felony charges of child endangerment and neglect that could send her to prison for 25 years. I seriously doubt that the babysitter intended for that dog to bite the child. I seriously doubt that anyone’s alleged such intent. And yes, I know there’s a pretty big difference in scale here, but different crimes carry different potential sentences to deal with differences in severity of crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/251 "2013-08-06T21:04:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Since intent has been alleged in this thread to be a necessity for charging someone with a crime, Not “a crime”. Not every possible crime. Trespassing. The crime of trespassing is one that requires intent. All the laws about ignoring signs and whatnot are not Gotchas, they are there to establish intent. You open a gate with a “no trespassing” sign on it, and walk onto property that’s not yours, you trespassed, because you knew it wasn’t your property, and you knew you weren’t welcome. You ask the guy on the other side if it’s OK to come in, and he says “yes” you didn’t trespass, even if he’s just a random trespasser himself. You still walked right past the sign, but without intent, it isn’t a crime. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/252 "2013-08-06T21:13:23Z")
As fascinating as the debate of is vs should with respect to the law is, I thought I’d chime in that the “unlocked” defense actually works against them. Bank foreclosed houses that are being prepped for sale have lockboxes on the door. An unlocked door is a red flag that they were in the wrong house. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/253 "2013-08-06T22:15:56Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > As fascinating as the debate of is vs should with respect to the law is, I thought I’d chime in that the “unlocked” defense actually works against them. Bank foreclosed houses that are being prepped for sale have lockboxes on the door. An unlocked door is a red flag that they were in the wrong house. That’s very nice of the former occupants, to put a lockbox on the door before they vacate their homes. Frankly, if I lost my home to a bank foreclosure, I don’t believe I would be so generous. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/254 "2013-08-06T22:29:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Since intent has been alleged in this thread to be a necessity for charging someone with a crime, rather than merely opening the door to seeking civil damages, I should note [this case](http://www.beeson4law.com/blog/2013/05/babysitter-accused-of-negligence-in-4-year-olds-dog-bite-death.shtml): > I seriously doubt that the babysitter intended for that dog to bite the child. I seriously doubt that anyone’s alleged such intent. Intent is not always necessary to charge someone with a crime, but a specified mental state, whether “knowingly” , “recklessly” or “negligently” usually is. Few crimes are strict liability. The crime of endangering the life or health of a child in Illinois is defined as > [@](#): > > A person commits endangering the life or health of a child when he or she _knowingly_: (1) causes or permits the life or health of a child under the age of 18 to be endangered; or (2) causes or permits a child to be placed in circumstances that endanger the child’s life or health (emphasis added) The babysitter doesn’t need to intend that the dog bite the child to be guilty, but she does need to knowingly permit the child’s life to be endangered- for example, by leaving the child alone in a room with a dog that had a history of biting. She would not be guilty if someone else let the dog into the room after she had left the child there (although that person might be) nor would she be guilty if a stray dog ran into the house when someone was leaving and then attacked the child or if she had taken the child to a park and the attack happened there. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/255 "2013-08-06T22:35:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s very nice of the former occupants, to put a lockbox on the door before they vacate their homes. Frankly, if I lost my home to a bank foreclosure, I don’t believe I would be so generous. I believe the lockbox would be put there by the bank’s realtor, which likely wouldn’t have been done in this case because the house wasn’t cleaned out yet. At this point if the DA is still investigating then we’ll have to leave it in their hands (as if we could make a difference anyway). It’s probably not worth a criminal charge, the important thing should be compensation for the homeowner, so perhaps the lingering threat of criminal prosecution would be helpful in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/256 "2013-08-07T19:13:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I believe the lockbox would be put there by the bank’s realtor, which likely wouldn’t have been done in this case because the house wasn’t cleaned out yet. At this point if the DA is still investigating then we’ll have to leave it in their hands (as if we could make a difference anyway). It’s probably not worth a criminal charge, the important thing should be compensation for the homeowner, so perhaps the lingering threat of criminal prosecution would be helpful in that regard. Per [this site](http://woub.org/2013/08/07/new-information-surfaces-mcarthur-wrongful-foreclosure-case): the Vinton County prosecutor has declined to pursue any criminal charges There is also new information about the case coming from a police report. Apparently when the home owner first contacted the police, she reported that someone had cleaned her house and mowed her lawn and she didn’t report anything missing. After the investigation, an officer told her what happened and she laughed about it and about having the lawn mowed and house cleaned. She then never contacted the police again about stuff being taken. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/257 "2013-08-08T01:14:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I believe the lockbox would be put there by the bank’s realtor, which likely wouldn’t have been done in this case because the house wasn’t cleaned out yet. At this point if the DA is still investigating then we’ll have to leave it in their hands (as if we could make a difference anyway). It’s probably not worth a criminal charge, the important thing should be compensation for the homeowner, so perhaps the lingering threat of criminal prosecution would be helpful in that regard. So then: > [@pancakes3](#): > > As fascinating as the debate of is vs should with respect to the law is, I thought I’d chime in that the “unlocked” defense actually works against them. Bank foreclosed houses that are being prepped for sale have lockboxes on the door. An unlocked door is a red flag that they were in the wrong house. …is not accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/258 "2013-09-10T15:01:04Z")
[http://now.msn.com/nikki-bailey-west-virginia-woman-has-possessions-taken-to-dump-in-foreclosure-mistake](http://now.msn.com/nikki-bailey-west-virginia-woman-has-possessions-taken-to-dump-in-foreclosure-mistake) “Nikki Bailey’s house In Logan, W.Va., has been paid for since 1988, so she was rightly flabbergasted when she came home to find a truck backed up to her door and the driver told her she was being foreclosed on. Even more disheartening: Aside from a couple of sticks of furniture on the truck, the rest of her possessions had already been hauled off to the dump, or so she was told. That included diplomas, pictures, clothes and the rest of her furniture. Turns out the repo men were at the right address (39 Godby) but at a street in the wrong town, 10 miles away” The repo company isn’t saying what bank was involved (if any?). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/259 "2013-09-10T15:08:44Z")
In _that_ case, the [prosecutors said](http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/Woman-Loses-Everything-When-Company-Repossesses-Wrong-House-221393691.html) that criminal charges were unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/260 "2013-09-10T15:22:01Z")
Wonder if the repo company made an effort to recover her stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=14)