# Excuse me, but when did GPS become a valid legal identifier of a property? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 27, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644 "2013-07-27T01:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/21 "2013-07-27T15:57:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The trouble with charging them with a crime is that there’s no intent. They all genuinely believed they were doing something completely legal. Get rid of intent, and minor mixups that have nothing to do with a bank throwing all your stuff away suddenly become criminal. The actual people who trespassed, broke and entered, and stole property may have had no intent, but the bank acted with reckless disregard, and officers and executives of the bank should be charged with crimes. That’s not a legal analysis, it’s just what should happen. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/22 "2013-07-27T16:52:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The actual people who trespassed, broke and entered, and stole property may have had no intent, but the bank acted with reckless disregard, and officers and executives of the bank should be charged with crimes. That’s not a legal analysis, it’s just what should happen. And while I’ll let the legal eagles weigh in, my recollection is that there is a level of carelessness and negligence that is criminal under the law. To take an extreme example, if I’m swinging a machete around on Saturday in the park with nobody within 10-15 feet, and - whoops! - it slips out of my hand, and goes sailing through the air and amputates a kid’s leg, am I off the hook with respect to criminal law just because I intended no harm? I certainly doubt it. By swinging the machete around in a public place, I was acting, as you say, with reckless disregard for the safety of anyone else who happened to be within range of the machete if I had an ‘oops’ moment. Presumably under the law in the case of the OP, the questions are: what degree of care was the bank legally required to take in order to make sure they were taking possession of the right house, and did they exercise that degree of care? I may be wrong, but it’s hard for me to believe that identifying the house in question with a set of GPS coordinates would satisfy the legal standard in this instance. And that’s why it boggles my mind that that’s what the bank is presenting as exculpatory, at least in the court of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/23 "2013-07-27T17:22:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I agree that people tend to wildly overestimate the value of their individual items (Craiglist is my cite) , but I think they also underestimate the accumulated value of a household. So they overprice the stuff at a garage sale and carry too little insurance. > > I assume they would also have to replace them quickly, and that’s where it gets impossible. The value of having all my stuff right now is a very different number than the cost of buying all my stuff over time, and what I have lost is the value of having my stuff right now. I am stealing “Craigslist is my cite”, just so you know. And there is a value in having the stuff available right now. If one’s luggage is in San Francisco while one is in Las Vegas, and one wishes to go see a show, it doesn’t MATTER if the luggage will arrive in a few days. The traveler has nothing to wear right now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/24 "2013-07-27T17:23:44Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > You bring up a good point, but my point is that many people think that if they paid, say, $50 for a pair of pants five years ago, then that pair of pants is still worth $50. OK, maybe it’s only worth $45, they’ll say. Some people think that the stuff that’s sold as “collectible” increases in value, too. After five years, the pants are probably going to be somewhat out of style (unless they’re classic five pocket jeans), and they’re also going to have less life in them. The duty of an airline or hotel to replace lost belongings is governed by the contract between the customer and the business. There is no such contract in place here limiting the liability of the bank for tossing out somebody’s shit (at least not in this case where it wasn’t a mortgagee.) IMHO, it doesn’t matter if the woman is demanding $100,000 to replace her stuff. She had no duty to document the contents of her home against the possibility that a truckload of men would show up and accidentally throw it out. The bank could have limited its own liability by documenting the contents of the home, and didn’t. Fuck 'em. [QUOTE=TriPolar] …the bank acted with reckless disregard, and officers and executives of the bank should be charged with crimes. That’s not a legal analysis, it’s just what should happen. [/QUOTE] This is just fucking stupid, and it’s not any less stupid because you couch it as a non-legal analysis. Do you expect the bank’s officers to personally supervise each repossession? Maybe we should haul Lee Iacocca up in court every time a windshield wiper fails on a Dodge Neon, too. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/25 "2013-07-27T17:37:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > IMHO, it doesn’t matter if the woman is demanding $100,000 to replace her stuff. She had no duty to document the contents of her home against the possibility that a truckload of men would show up and accidentally throw it out. The bank could have limited its own liability by documenting the contents of the home, and didn’t. Fuck 'em. > > This is just fucking stupid, and it’s not any less stupid because you couch it as a non-legal analysis. Do you expect the bank’s officers to personally supervise each repossession? Maybe we should haul Lee Iacocca up in court every time a windshield wiper fails on a Dodge Neon, too. This is the only right answer. This bank should be thanking its lucky stars she’s only asking for $18,000 and pay it RIGHT AWAY, because in a way THEY hit the lottery by screwing over an honest person who isn’t going to try and bleed them dry for everything they can possibly get. At this point I hope this lady lawyers up and sues them into oblivion. Fuck that bank. What a bunch of shitty fucking shit. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/26 "2013-07-27T17:50:14Z")
I don’t know why this homeowner doesn’t just file a claim for $18K on her homeowner insurance and let the insurance lawyers deal with the bank. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/27 "2013-07-27T18:19:51Z")
Now that I look at the bank president’s actual wording, he’s saying “the GPS locator” led them to the wrong place. So they’re placing their reliance on _an individual piece of consumer electronic gear_ in distinguishing the property they own from the property that they don’t. Whoa. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/28 "2013-07-27T19:10:32Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I am stealing “Craigslist is my cite”, just so you know. The intellectual rights to that are worth at least $18,000. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/29 "2013-07-27T19:33:23Z")
There is an intermediate level between simple replacement of the loss and criminal charges. A good lawsuit would ask for punitive damages, a signal from the courts to the defendant that what they did goes beyond just trashing someone’s property, but not rising to the level of an actual crime. This is handy, because it’s a lot easier to win such a case in court. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/30 "2013-07-27T20:04:39Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > You bring up a good point, but my point is that many people think that if they paid, say, $50 for a pair of pants five years ago, then that pair of pants is still worth $50. OK, maybe it’s only worth $45, they’ll say. Some people think that the stuff that’s sold as “collectible” increases in value, too. After five years, the pants are probably going to be somewhat out of style (unless they’re classic five pocket jeans), and they’re also going to have less life in them. Sure, I can see this. As others have pointed out, it’s also the inconvenience of not having your stuff RIGHT NOW. So… Tell you what. I’ll accept that my $50 jeans are only worth $10 now. So give me $10, and I’ll look for an exact replacement at a thrift store or garage sale. So that’s $10 for the jeans, and 8 hours of my time at $20/hour. $170 please. ETA: This is one reason why the bank should cut a cheque for $18,000 now. And the toaster. Don’t forget the toaster. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/31 "2013-07-27T20:10:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Now that I look at the bank president’s actual wording, he’s saying “the GPS locator” led them to the wrong place. So they’re placing their reliance on _an individual piece of consumer electronic gear_ in distinguishing the property they own from the property that they don’t. > > Whoa. I would assume that they put the address into a GPS and it took them to the wrong house. If it’s a very rural area and no one has street numbers on the mailbox, that’s really really wrong. If the number on the mailbox was wrong and they didn’t notice, that’s even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/32 "2013-07-27T20:31:16Z")
This > [@](#): > > This situation was a mistake on the part of our bank and – **as we have done previously** – we sincerely > apologize to the homeowner for the inconvenience and concern it may have caused. confuses me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/33 "2013-07-27T20:34:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is just fucking stupid, and it’s not any less stupid because you couch it as a non-legal analysis. Do you expect the bank’s officers to personally supervise each repossession? Maybe we should haul Lee Iacocca up in court every time a windshield wiper fails on a Dodge Neon, too. Your user name explains this response. Corporate officers are responsible for the actions of their employees. And if Lee Iacocca didn’t take reasonable measures to insure the safety of vehicles he could be criminally liable. This includes reasonable measures to insure his employees were doing their job properly. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/34 "2013-07-27T22:12:54Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > The intellectual rights to that are worth at least $18,000. I’m gonna pay her off in used clothing and furniture and office supplies. 😛 > [@Trinopus](#): > > There is an intermediate level between simple replacement of the loss and criminal charges. A good lawsuit would ask for punitive damages, a signal from the courts to the defendant that what they did goes beyond just trashing someone’s property, but not rising to the level of an actual crime. > > This is handy, because it’s a lot easier to win such a case in court. This is why I said that the punishment should make the bank sting. The penalty should be severe enough that the bank has a financial incentive not to do it again. > [@MandaJo](#): > > I would assume that they put the address into a GPS and it took them to the wrong house. If it’s a very rural area and no one has street numbers on the mailbox, that’s really really wrong. If the number on the mailbox was wrong and they didn’t notice, that’s even worse. I am a firm believer in the idea that all addresses should be painted on the driveway curb AND should be prominently displayed above or on the mailbox. This isn’t just in case of GPS failure, but because someone might want to come visit you, or you might need an ambulance or fire truck, or hell, you might want a pizza. Now me, personally, I’d prefer to paint my house purple and just direct everyone to it that way (“Yeah, you go down Main, past the fountain, and mine is the bright purple house on the left, you can’t miss it”) but my husband doesn’t care for that idea. There should be a standardized location for street addresses! This goes double for businesses. \ I gotta say, I love my Garmin, most of the time. Pre-Garmin, I spent far too much time slowly cruising up one street or another at 15 MPH, peering anxiously at addresses, trying to find that clinic. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/35 "2013-07-27T22:33:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There is an intermediate level between simple replacement of the loss and criminal charges. A good lawsuit would ask for punitive damages, a signal from the courts to the defendant that what they did goes beyond just trashing someone’s property, but not rising to the level of an actual crime. > > This is handy, because it’s a lot easier to win such a case in court. This is what the lady should have done, not ask $18K. Sue the bank into the ground. Lawyer up big-time and go for massive punitive damages. Make the bank bleed, and hope it also costs a number of executives their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/36 "2013-07-27T22:47:06Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > The woman in this case is asking $18,000 for replacing everything. IMO, that’s a damn cheap price for the bank to pay. So what if her property was only worth $5000 in used condition, or it only costs $10,000 to replace it all? The bank will quickly lose a hell of a lot more than $18,000 from wasted time fixing this, legal costs, and bad publicity. When I worked for the car company many a time I saw them settle with a customer when the customer was clearly wrong and should have not gotten anything. The reason? It costs about a hundred grand to take such a case to trial. Cheaper to write a check. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/37 "2013-07-27T23:55:31Z")
I use Google Maps all day everyday. It takes me to the wrong address all the time. I’d say about 1 in 100 shows the wrong house. And I’m with Lynn about displaying addresses. Especially business’ why make it hard for people to find your place of business? You want me to show up at your house to work on time. Yet I have to drive up and down the street three times counting houses trying to figure out which one is yours. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/38 "2013-07-28T00:30:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > This is what the lady should have done, not ask $18K. Sue the bank into the ground. Lawyer up big-time and go for massive punitive damages. Make the bank bleed, and hope it also costs a number of executives their jobs. God I get so fucking tired of the recreational outrage and cries for blood over a fucking mistake. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the first response to somebody doing something wrong is to hear cries of “SUE THEM!!! MAKE THEM BLEEEEEEEEED!!!”, but it’s so damn frustrating. Gosh, I wonder why our legal is choked with dumb ass lawsuits, people suing at the drop of a hat, and the cries for hyper-inflated monetary awards from idiots. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/39 "2013-07-28T00:42:49Z")
Hamlet, that was one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read anyone post on this board. That includes stuff from Clothahump. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/40 "2013-07-28T00:49:50Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Hamlet, that was one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read anyone post on this board. That includes stuff from Clothahump. Care to explain, because I’m not seeing how not wanting people to lose jobs or a bank to be run into the ground over a dumb mistake is stupid. Granted I’ll defer to your in depth knowledge of stupid, but maybe you could help me out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=3)