# Excuse me, but when did GPS become a valid legal identifier of a property? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 27, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644 "2013-07-27T01:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/61 "2013-07-29T01:44:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They’re not willing to pay the amount the homeowner claims will make her whole. Whether or not that is the correct amount is the basis for the dispute. > > If the bank offered $5,000 and she refused, would you claim she is not willing to accept the amount that will make her whole? > > Nothing makes her version of the contents inherently more reliable than the banks version, and vice versa. IANAL but isn’t the burden on them to prove that her valuation is incorrect? Had they kept detailed records of what they removed, they’d have no problems doing that. Since they didn’t, I think they’re stuck accepting hers. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/62 "2013-07-29T01:49:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Nothing makes her version of the contents inherently more reliable than the banks version, and vice versa. Well, there are a few things. The bank has already demonstrated incompetence if given the benefit of the doubt, and gross negligence if not. The bank has also demanded to see receipts for the claimed property, a wholly unreasonable position given the circumstances. And finally, the bank is on record stating it’s only willing to pay selling value of the goods, rather than replacement value. I see no reason why the above considerations should not lead us to discount the reliability of the bank’s position. I really think the bank apologists in this thread are discounting the degree of negligence we have here. Correctly identifying a house when you have the address is not rocket science. The house they looted has the address clearly printed on its mailbox. And it’s not on the right side of the street. Seriously, the bank’s agents are unable to distinguish between odd and even numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/63 "2013-07-29T01:56:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They’re _not_ willing to pay up the amount it will take for the victim of their negligence to be made whole. They have instead chosen to stonewall. THAT, to repeat, is the problem here. They dispute what it will take to make the victim whole. She says the stuff was worth $18,000. They say the stuff they got out couldn’t be worth that much. The two sides disagree, so they can go to court, argue it before a jury, and they can decide what is fair. And the bank doesn’t have to bleed, it doesn’t have to be run into the ground, and all the executives don’t have to lose their jobs. I grasp fully what what the problem is, and I’m confident it will all be solved without having to resort to firing unrelated executives and ruining a bank. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/64 "2013-07-29T02:00:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Had they kept detailed records of what they removed, they’d have no problems doing that. Since they didn’t, I think they’re stuck accepting hers. Is this another thing I haven’t heard of? From the bank’s statement: “However, the written list of items that she provided to us – and the value she assigned to those items – is inconsistent with the list and descriptions of items removed that was prepared by the employees who did the work, and with the list and values of missing items provided by the homeowner herself as recorded in an earlier telephone conversation with one of our representatives.” If you believe the bank, they did keep detailed records of what they removed, and the homeowner apparently changed the list of what was taken and its value between the first telephone conversation and her later written list. I don’t know who to believe and I hope they settle it in court. And, once again, there is no need for the bank to be put out of business or executives fired over it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/65 "2013-07-29T02:02:41Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I really think the bank apologists in this thread are discounting the degree of negligence we have here. Maybe I’m in the wrong thread, but I haven’t found anyone in this thread who has defended the actions of the bank in going into the wrong house, taking and destroying property that wasn’t theirs. I don’t see anyone arguing the bank shouldn’t be required to pay what is fair, either. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/66 "2013-07-29T02:04:12Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The house they looted Exactly. Why would anyone in the community continue doing business with a bank that would loot someone’s home without justification, then argue about restitution? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/67 "2013-07-29T02:47:26Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Maybe I’m in the wrong thread, but I haven’t found anyone in this thread who has defended the actions of the bank in going into the wrong house, taking and destroying property that wasn’t theirs. I don’t see anyone arguing the bank shouldn’t be required to pay what is fair, either. Aside from the three rounds of victim-blaming you engaged in above, right? If it had been an honest, understandable mistake, then expecting the bank to pay what is fair is reasonable. Since it was a grotesquely negligent mistake, and since the bank is trying to nickel and dime the restitution, I think it perfectly reasonable that punitive damages be awarded. Not huge, jackpot type damages, but a little slap on the wrist for the bank and enough for the homeowner to buy some really nice new furniture. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/68 "2013-07-29T03:16:45Z")
The bank should look at it this way: Homeowner’s evaluation =$18,000 Homeowner takes our ass to court, and we lose (pretty much a given) Court evaluation not less than $5,000 Our lawyer = $50,000 Their lawyer = $50,000 Punitive damages =? Total at least $105,000 So which check would the bank president rather sign? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/69 "2013-07-29T04:26:49Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > The bank should look at it this way: > Homeowner’s evaluation =$18,000 > Homeowner takes our ass to court, and we lose (pretty much a given) > Court evaluation not less than $5,000 > Our lawyer = $50,000 > Their lawyer = $50,000 > Punitive damages =? > > Total at least $105,000 > So which check would the bank president rather sign? You’re making a couple of assumptions here. Firstly, that the bank will have to pay the homeowner’s costs, which will likely only be the case of the court awards damages above what the bank offered. And secondly that they don’t have lawyers employed anyway, in case they need them. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/70 "2013-07-29T04:50:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is just fucking stupid, and it’s not any less stupid because you couch it as a non-legal analysis. Do you expect the bank’s officers to personally supervise each repossession? Maybe we should haul Lee Iacocca up in court every time a windshield wiper fails on a Dodge Neon, too. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Your user name explains this response. Corporate officers are responsible for the actions of their employees. And if Lee Iacocca didn’t take reasonable measures to insure the safety of vehicles he could be criminally liable. This includes reasonable measures to insure his employees were doing their job properly. :dubious: Lee Iacocca retired as chairman of Chrysler in 1992. Outside of doing a few commercials in 2005, he hasn’t had anything to do with Chrysler in the last 21 years outside of drawing a pension and a company car. He ain’t responsible for shit. You’d make a better case out of holding the chairman of Fiat responsible for shitty Chryslers, since that company owns 62% of Chrysler. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/71 "2013-07-29T04:52:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re making a couple of assumptions here. Firstly, that the bank will have to pay the homeowner’s costs, which will likely only be the case of the court awards damages above what the bank offered. And secondly that they don’t have lawyers employed anyway, in case they need them. OK, Knock 50 grand off. Would you rather write a check for $18K or $55K+? This ain’t rocket surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/72 "2013-07-29T06:23:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Anyway, you fucked up. Your flunkies, relying on the GPS whose limitations we’ve already discussed, committed an act of illegal trespass, entered someone else’s house, and threw everything away. The owner says there was more stuff there to be thrown away than you say there was. But you know what? She’s not the one who fucked up. You are. So pay the lady her $18,000 and consider yourself lucky it wasn’t a lot more. > > Asshole. Quoted for emphasis. 100% agreement. The aggravation alone is worth 18 grand. Private possessions don’t always have a dollar value. Fuck those idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/73 "2013-07-29T06:32:34Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I am a firm believer in the idea that all addresses should be painted on the driveway curb AND should be prominently displayed above or on the mailbox. This isn’t just in case of GPS failure, but because someone might want to come visit you, or you might need an ambulance or fire truck, or hell, you might want a pizza. FOR THE LOVE OF CHRISTMAS, don’t even order pizza (or think about having a heart attack anytime soon) without a number prominently displayed on your house/mailbox/curb. What I do is just pizza, so who cares. But if it takes me 20 minutes to find your house, and I have a flashlight and an intimate knowledge of your neighborhood, then the EMTs are going to find you dead, dead, and more dead. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/74 "2013-07-29T07:21:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That’s the bank’s story. The woman’s story is that she was on vacation for a couple weeks and so the grass was high. And there are still parts of the country where no one locks their houses. > > And in any case, does it matter? Does a person really have to make sure their house looks lived in in the right sort of way, get to know their neighbors in the right sort of way, have the right sort of stuff just to protect against random raiding? > > Final question: Everything in your house can be sold on the street for $10,000. However, to buy used goods that are the same, and satisfy you to the same degree, would take literally months of scouring garage sales, thrift stores, and craigslist. Do you really think that a check for $10,000 makes you whole again? Hell, for that matter, someone could have broken into the house and left the door unlocked while she was on vacation. And possibly stolen some of the goods, which would have partially accounted for the discrepancy. But the bank failed to double check the address, apparently, and I doubt that it can prove that someone else broke in first. The bank failed to meet professional standards, IMO, when it came to making sure that it was targeting the right house. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > FOR THE LOVE OF CHRISTMAS, don’t even order pizza (or think about having a heart attack anytime soon) without a number prominently displayed on your house/mailbox/curb. > > What I do is just pizza, so who cares. But if it takes me 20 minutes to find your house, and I have a flashlight and an intimate knowledge of your neighborhood, then the EMTs are going to find you dead, dead, and more dead. My house number is painted on my driveway curb in big bright numbers AND I have the numbers in big bright digits just above my mailbox. But if I have another stroke, I’ll probably use my cell to call 911, because GPS is what saved me last time. Of course, I was pulled over into a parking lot, but I couldn’t really describe where I was. I could barely manage to pull over and dial my husband and then 911. Strokes are scary. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/75 "2013-07-29T10:14:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, there’s the fact that she _lived there_. :dubious: And the fact that she acquired all the stuff herself, and presumably knew what she paid for it, and has a good idea of the cost to replace it. And the fact that the bank’s workers threw out a bunch of it. And that there was apparently no inventory taken when they executed the bank’s order even before they threw it out. That good enough to constitute a preponderance of evidence for ya? You do realize that I’m talking about the homeowner lying in regards to the contents of the house. Somebody in this story is flat out lying. It could be the homeowner, or the bank workers, or both. They both potentially have incentive to lie. I’m simply not going to buy into the homeowner’s version wholesale just because the bank workers fouled up the address. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/76 "2013-07-29T11:13:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m simply not going to buy into the homeowner’s version wholesale just because the bank workers fouled up the address. I am. She has no reason to keep an accurate inventory of her possessions. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/77 "2013-07-29T11:59:14Z")
Do you think she has no reason to lie? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/78 "2013-07-29T12:31:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Do you think she has no reason to lie? She has no reason not to. The onus is on the folks that entered unlawfully and looted her home. If she claimed her possessions were family heirlooms that were priceless, I would not doubt her. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/79 "2013-07-29T12:57:06Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > She has no reason not to. Is it your position that it’s OK to fabricate a bunch of possessions in order to screw over the bank for their mistake? Honestly, I don’t mind the idea that the homeowner makes out, and is profited by the deal. The words Treble Damages seem to be applicable. However, those Damages need to be real, and not fabricated. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644/80 "2013-07-29T13:01:20Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > However, those Damages need to be real, and not fabricated. The only evidence that she has fabricated damages is coming from the bank, who has an interest in not paying her and has already been stonewalling and lowballing payment. It’s a he said/she said situation, and I’ll choose to believe the homeowner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-but-when-did-gps-become-a-valid-legal-identifier-of-a-property/664644.md?page=5)