# Excuse Me, Right-Wing Radio Pundits... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634 "2009-09-02T14:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/81 "2009-09-07T23:53:33Z")
I also meant to add that with regard to the notion that democracies are doomed to fail because sooner or later their populace discovers that they can vote themselves goodies from the public coffers, there is ample evidence in this country’s history to bear that out. Just a hundred years ago there was no federal income tax, and yet look where we are now. Even lower-middle-class workers have to cough up fifty percent or more of the money they earn to feed the public coffers. (This of course takes into account state and federal taxes, Medicare and Social Security.) And depite this, the cry for greater government spending and greater government control over our lives is greater than ever. Far too many people in this country have come to want the government to function as their parent, taking care of them and protecting them and providing for their every need, and there is not the slightest hint that any of that is about to abate. Human beings have a virtually limitless ability to want, and they will want more and more as long as government can provide it. Eventually however, the government’s economy gets dragged down to the point it can no longer meet its obligations, and the citizenry, lazy and entitled, no longer posesses the ability to increase production, and that is when the democracies in question and their economies go kaput. But of course, people of liberal philosophy being the way they are, the last thing in the world they will admit is that their ideas and policies are what went wrong, and so anything and everything but the real reason will get blamed…thus muddying the waters even further when it comes to assessing which of history’s democracies fell due to excessive government social spending. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/82 "2009-09-08T00:01:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Gee, _Canadian Doctors for Medicare_ is in favor of Medicare? Who’da thunk _that_? > > Meanwhile, \*" **The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country’s health-care system is sick** and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it. > > Dr. Anne Doig says \*\*patients are getting less than optimal care \*\*and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made. > > “ **We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize** ,” Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press. > > “We know that there must be change,” she said. “ **We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands**.”\* [Cite](http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw) > > [bolding mine] > Sounds to me more like the Canadians around here who are trumpeting the success of their system are not only biased but wrong. > [@](#): > > **Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they’ve been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that’s not the case**. From your same cite. This is now example 259 of a right winger citing something that in reality does not support the idea that other countries are scrapping their system or supporting an American one. And it has to be mentioned that **Starving Artist** is being a coward for not replying to what the Canadian Doctors for Medicare said. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/83 "2009-09-08T00:12:35Z")
And if the very Canadians that give the health care there are not convincing, then lets see what a Republican citizen in Iowa has to say about the changes that are needed in the US health care system: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ParMpNNEsdI/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/ParMpNNEsdI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque > [@](#): > > “I voted for Reagan, Nixon, George W. Bush and Senator Chuck Grassley too.” > > “I served my country for over 24 years in the army,” he says. “I’ve talked to friends and neighbors around Iowa and one thing is clear. No matter what the politicians in Washington D.C. say, Democrats and Republicans back home want the public insurance option.” > > “I voted for Senator Grassley in the past,” Shilling adds. “But when Grassley takes over $2 million from the big health and insurance industries that oppose reform and then says he won’t give Iowans the choice of a public option, I have to ask: Senator, whose side are you on?” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/84 "2009-09-08T00:20:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > From your same cite. > > This is now example 259 of a right winger citing something that in reality does not support the idea that other countries are scrapping their system or supporting an American one. I’d forgotten yet again how dishonest a poster you are. I did not claim that she wanted an American-style health system, only that the one she has is not working…which it isn’t, and which her comments support! > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And it has to be mentioned that **Starving Artist** is being a coward for not replying to what the Canadian Doctors for Medicare said. Who cares what they said? I’m sure that if you asked the American Doctors for Medicare (assuming you could find any), they would claim that Medicare is wonderful here too. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And if the very Canadians that give the health care there are not convincing, then lets see what a Republican citizen in Iowa has to say about the changes that are needed in the US health care system: Again, so what? I haven’t been praising the current U.S. health care system. What I’ve been doing is pointing out that governmental systems are typically underfunded, beaurocratic, plagued with long waits, and worse for a greater number of people – all of which they are. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/85 "2009-09-08T00:27:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d forgotten yet again how dishonest a poster you are. I did not claim that she wanted an American-style health system, only that the one she has is not working…which it isn’t, and which her comments support! Then it is disonest to say it was helpful to your side. Their system is not perfect but is preferred to the one we have. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Who cares what they said? I’m sure that if you asked the American Doctors for Medicare (assuming you could find any), they would claim that Medicare is wonderful here too. > > Again, so what? Once again, it shows that your points are misleading, and you remain a coward for not dealing with what they say. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I haven’t been praising the current U.S. health care system. What I’ve been doing is pointing out that governmental systems are typically underfunded, beaurocratic, plagued with long waits, and worse for a greater number of people – all of which they are. And I have seen that you only concentrate on a small group of people having problems. There are people even in this thread mentioning examples that waiting is not an issue for many in Canada and other countries. There are locations and situations where that is a problem, but overall it is not as bad as we see also in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/86 "2009-09-08T00:35:06Z")
So, these people who keep coming and telling you that they live in these countries, and find the health care systems pretty darn good…are they lying? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/87 "2009-09-08T00:46:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I haven’t been praising the current U.S. health care system. What I’ve been doing is pointing out that governmental systems are typically underfunded, beaurocratic, plagued with long waits, and worse for a greater number of people – all of which they are. Which is meaningless unless you are comparing them against the US. If the US is worse in all these categories, then Canada, even with its problems, is preferable. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/88 "2009-09-08T01:02:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, these people who keep coming and telling you that they live in these countries, and find the health care systems pretty darn good…are they lying? I’d wager there is a greater number of people in this country who find our system pretty darn good, and they aren’t lying either. Our system, like our economy, serves some extremely well, many others very well, and a sizable number of the remainder adequately. I would wager that this covers 70 to 80% of the population. There is a minority that is not served well or at all, but that is not, IMO, a condemnation of the entire system and it isn’t reason to overhaul the entire system and allow it to fall into the hands of the government. There are many alternatives that could be debated about how to handle the needs of people who have no coverage, and how to deal with the problems the current system presents, but since they don’t create dependence on the government, the government has no interest in pursuing them, and since they don’t create dependence on the government, people of leftist politics have no interest in pursuing them. So here we are: one side thinks that nothing will work but government takeover of health care, and the other knows that government health care is the worst possible alternative if you’re talking about the greatest care for the greatest number of people, and that alternatives apart from a government solution exist to meet the needs of the minority without coverage but they aren’t being explored due to the left’s incessant need to put the government in charge of everything. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > Which is meaningless unless you are comparing them against the US. If the US is worse in all these categories, then Canada, even with its problems, is preferable. Well, number one, we are far from worse in any of those categories, let alone all. And second, the argument hasn’t been framed as “_Canada – it’s better than what we have now_.” No, it’s “_Canada – their system is wonderful and ours sucks! If only we had their system everything would be sweetness and light!_” Which, as we see from Dr. Doig’s comments and the cutbacks being mulled in Vancouver, is far from true. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/89 "2009-09-08T01:21:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So here we are: one side thinks that nothing will work but government takeover of health care. Misrepresentation, not all think that way, even having the public option is not a takeover. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > and the other knows that government health care is the worst possible alternative if you’re talking about the greatest care for the greatest number of people, and that alternatives apart from a government solution exist to meet the needs of the minority without coverage but they aren’t being explored due to the left’s incessant need to put the government in charge of everything. Fantasy is nice in fiction but not in reality. Even moderate Republicans know that the current system can not be maintained. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, number one, we are far from worse in any of those categories, let alone all. And second, the argument hasn’t been framed as “_Canada – it’s better than what we have now_.” No, it’s “_Canada – their system is wonderful and ours sucks! If only we had their system everything would be sweetness and light!_” > > Which, as we see from Dr. Doig’s comments and the cutbacks being mulled in Vancouver, is far from true. And still Dr. Doig is really talking about reforming their system, not to use the irrational one we have. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/90 "2009-09-08T01:24:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Our system, like our economy, serves some extremely well, many others very well, and a sizable number of the remainder adequately. I would wager that this covers 70 to 80% of the population… You mean, only about 20 to 30 percent of our population is underserved or ill-served by our system? Is that all? Well, shit, I was thinking we had, like, a problem that needed to be fixed, I didn’t know it was only about a fifth to a third of our people. Ready for a real amazing coincidence! Roughly speaking, the same percentage who are underserved by the health system are the same percentage who are at a disadvantage in the economic system! Wow! What if they’re the same people! I mean, really, what are the odds of a coincidence like that. But I am reassured. A mere twenty to thirty percent. We can rest easy with a record like that. > [@](#): > > …And second, the argument hasn’t been framed as “_Canada – it’s better than what we have now_.” No, it’s “_Canada – their system is wonderful and ours sucks! If only we had their system everything would be sweetness and light!_”… Nope. Thats pretty much what we’re saying, theirs works better than ours. Now, of course, if you actually have a cite of someone saying what you claim, about “sweetness and light”, now would be a good time to bring it. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/91 "2009-09-08T01:26:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I recall also posting a cite regarding problems with the U.K. system. Are you referring to the cite in this thread that DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU CLAIMED IT DID? The cite that several people pointed out DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU CLAIMED? The cite that I specifically challenged you to explain why you thought it said something other than what everyone else thought it said? That cite? > [@](#): > > These cites invariably lay there like dead fish. And the reason? The reason? The reason is that your cites are asinine. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/92 "2009-09-08T01:39:17Z")
Now, just a second there! As **Starv** has already explicitly stated, we who support Satanist medicine invariably describe it as perfection itself, spotless and immaculate in every respect. The article clearly states that there is a problem, and efforts are being made to fix said problem. Well, there you have it. It is not perfect, as we claimed. Therefore, he wins. Really, **Bayard** , no offense intended, but you’re gonna have to get a lot smarter if you’re going to take on \*\*Starv \*\*in an argument. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/93 "2009-09-08T01:42:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean, only about 20 to 30 percent of our population is underserved or ill-served by our system? Is that all? It seems that \*\*Starving Artist \*\*is missing 25 million more: [http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/economy/healthcare\_underinsured/index.htm](http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/economy/healthcare_underinsured/index.htm) > [@](#): > > NEW YORK ([CNNMoney.com](http://CNNMoney.com)) – Americans already shouldering the cost of millions of people without health insurance should brace for a double-whammy: a surge in the number of the “underinsured,” or consumers who have some but not enough coverage. > > The problem, according to health care industry experts, is that the government and those with employer-based plans will have to pick up the tab as more Americans are unable to pay their entire medical bill. > > As the recession puts a bigger strain on consumers’ wallets, many underinsured Americans either can’t or won’t pay the high deductibles and co-pays for treatment they receive in hospitals and emergency rooms. > > By one estimate, 25 million Americans can’t afford to cover the gap between what their insurance covers and their medical bills demand. > > The issue shows the steep challenge faced by President Obama and other Washington leaders vowing to put the health care system on a course for long-term fiscal viability. On Thursday, the president is convening 150 experts, advocates and lawmakers for a “summit” to debate options. > > Many people without adequate insurance are also delaying or forgoing medical care until it becomes an absolute emergency, said Dr. David Chin, managing partner of consulting firm PricewaterhouseCooper’s Global Healthcare Research Institute. > > By law, hospitals have to treat all emergency admissions regardless of insurance. > > “If the underinsured can’t pay the bills, the hospital either writes it off as bad debt or shifts the cost to its charity care program,” said John Pickering, principal and consulting actuary with consulting firm Milliman Inc. > > Increasingly, hospitals are shifting costs to “those who can pay,” said Wynn Bailey, partner and health care expert with consulting firm AT Kearney. “That’s the government, private insurers and the self-insured.” > > Bailey said hospitals are negotiating higher treatment rates with insurance companies to offset the bad debt. > > In turn, commercial insurance providers are charging higher premiums to their clients, both businesses and individuals, to cover their cost increases. As businesses struggle with their employee health care costs, they are shifting a higher percentage of overall premiums to their workers, charging higher deductibles, or encouraging greater use of generic drugs. > > “It’s a vicious cycle,” said Pickering. > > Bailey said he wouldn’t be surprised if people with employer-based health insurance have to pay 5% to 10% more for their coverage over the next year or two. > > Not tracked by government > > One reason the exponential growth in underinsured Americans hasn’t made headlines is because this group isn’t yet tracked by the government, explained Sara Collins, economist and assistant vice president with health policy research group The Commonwealth Fund. > > “It’s harder to define the underinsured,” Collins said. > > The Commonwealth Fund defines underinsured as those who incur high out-of-pocket costs - excluding premiums - relative to their income, despite having coverage all year. > > Using that measure in consumer surveys, Collins’ firm estimates that 25 million adults under age 65 were underinsured in 2007. > > \*\*More importantly, Collins pointed out that the number of underinsured increased 60% from 2003 to 2007. That compares with a 5.1% increase in the number of uninsured Americans - to about 46 million - over the same period, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. > \*\* > \*\*“The 25 million [number] can still be an underestimate,” \*\*Collins said. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/94 "2009-09-08T02:09:50Z")
Regarding the “good” waiting times in the USA (In several areas they are still bad), there is a recent disturbing reason that has to qualify those good times: \*\*insured \*\*people that go to the ERs: > **[Bill Moyers Journal . Transcripts | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08282009/transcript1.html)** > [@](#): > > MAGGIE MAHAR:\*\* Over the last 12 years a number of people visiting America’s emergency rooms has soared. Yet here’s what’s surprising: The number of low-income people going to ERs has not increased. The increase has come almost entirely among middle-class people and many of them have insurance.\*\* > > NURSE: Whose insurance do you have? > > PATIENT: Blue Cross. > > NURSE: Do you have your card with you? > > PATIENT: Yeah. > > \*\*MAGGIE MAHAR: So why do they go to the ER? Why aren’t they seeing their own doctor? Many people think that they know what’s wrong with the health care system in this country. Millions of people are uninsured. And sure, that’s part of the problem. But that’s not the whole problem. The whole problem is bigger than that. > > DR. JOHN NIXON: I am on top here. Any problem up there? Any problem in the back? > > DR NIXON: There’re just not enough resources out there for, not only your uninsured patients, but also your insured patients. Insured patients have a problem also because their doctors, when they call their office and says, “I need to see…” … “We can’t see you for three weeks.” “Well, what am I going to do for three weeks?”\*\* > > DOCTOR: Open your mouth. > > Health care costs keep going up, up and up and up. But the access seems to be going down down down down. > > All right. Do you need anything for pain right now? You do? Okay, we’ll get you something all right? We’ve got to run some tests and we’ll be back. > > PATIENT: Okay, thank you. > > I’m just glad, you know, that there’s a place to come to, you know. I mean, dying is not no big deal to me, but you know, people have to go through a lot before they get there. > > \*\*MAGGIE MAHAR: When I was a financial journalist at Barrens, I wrote many stories about health care. And what I learned was that much of what we think we know about health care isn’t true. And much of what is true is counterintuitive. So eventually I decided to write a book about health care. And when I did I knew I wanted to talk to a lot of doctors. So I began putting out phone calls. I didn’t know most of the doctors I was calling. I was hoping that maybe 20 percent of them would return my call. To my utter surprise 5 out of 6 of them called me back. And they talked. They talked for 30 minutes. They talked for longer than that. They said, “Please, we want someone to know. Please tell people.” To a man and to a woman what they were most passion about was the declining quality of care in this country. Not about how much they were paid or how much they weren’t paid. They were concerned about the quality of care, about what was happening to their profession and how little power they had to do anything about it. > > DR. DONALD BERWICK: It is, I guess, politically correct, widely believed, that to say that American health care is the best in the world. It’s not. There’s a much more complicated story there. For some kinds of care my colleague Brent James calls it rescue care. Yes, we’re the best in the world. If you need very complex cardiac surgery or very advanced chemotherapy for your cancer or some audacious intervention with organ transplantation, you’re pretty lucky to be in America. > > You’ll get it faster and you’ll probably get it better than in at least most other countries. Rescue care we’re great. But most health care isn’t that. Most health care is getting people with diabetes through their illness over years or controlling the pain of someone with arthritis or just answering a question for someone who is worried or preventing them from getting into trouble in the first place. And on those scores: Chronic disease care, community-based care, primary care, preventive care. No no, we’re no where near the best. And it’s reflected in our outcomes. > > We’re something like the… We’re not the best health care system in the world in infant mortality rates. We’re like number 23. There is an index that is used in rating health care systems, which is the rate of mortality that could have been prevented by health care. There are at least a dozen countries with lower rates of preventable mortalities than the United States and not one of those countries spends 60 percent of what we do on health care. > > MAGGIE MAHAR: Dr. Donald Berwick is a pediatrician and a revolutionary, really. He wants to overthrow a health care system he sees shot through with waste, inefficiency, self- interest and disrespect for patients. Berwick believes that the people working in our health care system are by and large dedicated and caring people, but they’re stuck in a stupid system. And he calls that a national tragedy. > > DR. DONALD BERWICK: If you look at the way we pay for care in the country and say, “Well, what is the underlying theme here?” We pay for doing things. A piece of surgery, performing a test, doing a procedure. Even a visit is a thing. So specialties or medical practices that do a lot of things, a lot of tests, a lot of surgeries, a lot of procedures; They’ll tend to be the higher income earning specialties. > > Medical students leave medical school today with enormous debts. Primary care specialties are the lowest paying. If you have a choice between taking 15 years to pay off your debt or seven, you might decide on seven, and that means you can’t be a primary care doctor.\*\* > > DR. DAN LARSON: I wonder what your blood pressure is first thing in the morning. > > MAGGIE MAHAR: What’s interesting about the fee schedule is that it’s all about what it costs the doctor to produce the service in terms of time and education. Never does anyone ask, “How much benefit is there for the patient?” This might be a service that, on average, lengthens the patient’s life by 5 months, as opposed to having your diabetes controlled for 30 years, which means that you live a lot longer and you never have an amputation. And yet we would pay much more for that technically very skilled procedure that gave you another couple of months, because we look at it entirely in terms of the work on the part of the doctor rather than the benefit to the patient. > > DR. DAN LARSON: He has a very soft, like maybe one or maybe two out of six systolic near the apex. Take a listen; let me see if we’ve ever evaluated that… > > MAGGIE MAHAR: So we don’t value primary care doctors, generalists, family doctors highly at all. The compensation is relatively low and that’s why we have fewer and fewer of them. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/95 "2009-09-09T10:35:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I recall also posting a cite regarding problems with the U.K. system. Yeah, I recall that one, too. It said nothing like what you thought it did and was shot down in flames, whereupon you refused to actually discuss it, claiming you were too busy (while simultaneously making the same goddamn whinge that no-one will discuss your cites). Then you ran away. You think people aren’t taking your cites seriously? Get back to [that thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11516640) and discuss the Liverpool Care Pathway, or shut the fuck up about it. The latter would be preferable, as you clearly don’t have a clue about the realities of palliative care for terminal patients. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/96 "2009-09-09T10:57:34Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Yeah, I recall that one, too. It said nothing like what you thought it did and was shot down in flames, whereupon you refused to actually discuss it, claiming you were too busy (while simultaneously making the same goddamn whinge that no-one will discuss your cites). Then you ran away. > > You think people aren’t taking your cites seriously? Get back to [that thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11516640) and discuss the Liverpool Care Pathway, or shut the fuck up about it. The latter would be preferable, as you clearly don’t have a clue about the realities of palliative care for terminal patients. 1. The linked said what I said it did and it was not shot down in flames…unless you call simple denial shooting things down in flames. 2. I never “run” away. I got busy and have pretty much stayed that way. A check of my postings since that time will show that I’ve been away from the board quite a bit. 3. Sometimes, after having been away from a thread for a couple of days or more, I find my passion for arguing it has waned. When that happens I often go elsewhere. 4. I don’t “whinge” that no one talks about my cites. I observe that, when bowing to the constant demands I get to cite this or that and posting some, they get roundly ignored when they don’t agree with my opponents’ positions. This simply bears out my oft-stated contention that cites don’t mean jack-shit around here, so why bother. 5. I will post when and about what I want. 6. Cheers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/97 "2009-09-09T11:10:29Z")
So you _won’t_ discuss the cite that you are now whinging no-one paid any attention to? You seem to have found plenty of time to repeat this whinge across several threads, but none to discuss the LCP. How very odd. You seem awfully swift to respond to accusations of disappearing, too. What an odd busy-ness this is, that leaves you so much time for meta-debate, and none for actual debate. Well, here I am: I want to talk about your article on the Liverpool Care Pathway, what you think it says, and why you think it’s indicative of what socialised medicine will do. But you won’t. So shut the fuck up about people not responding to your cites. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/98 "2009-09-09T11:18:09Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > So shut the fuck up about people not responding to your cites. Hmm, you seem to have missed item #5 above. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/99 "2009-09-09T11:28:43Z")
No, I noticed it. It just seemed remarkably hypocritical, given your incessant whining about other people not posting on your chosen topics. If you’re not going to respond to posts about your own bloody cites, why the fuck should other people bother with them? You can’t have your cake and eat it. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634/100 "2009-09-09T12:11:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > 1. The linked said what I said it did and it was not shot down in flames…unless you call simple denial shooting things down in flames. You are the **only one in this thread who thinks that.** Now, either you’re the smartest guy in the room, in which case we’d all appreciate it if you’d fight our ignorance; or you’re a boob. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/excuse-me-right-wing-radio-pundits/508634.md?page=6)