# Executed child found to be innocent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549 "2014-12-18T04:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/201 "2014-12-25T18:53:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. And in Willingham’s trial, did he suffer a denial of due process? Yes. The Prosecutor made a illegal and unethical deal with the main witness, a jailhouse snitch, who then lied and said Willingham confessed when in actuality Willingham said nothing of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/202 "2014-12-25T18:56:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But if the system(and you) do not acknowledge that mistakes have been made and that innocent people have been unjustly executed, how will the system be improved and how will the mistakes _that you refuse to acknowledge_ be prevented from happening in the future? So far as anyone has been able to show, no innocent person _has_ been unjustly executed in recent decades. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/203 "2014-12-25T18:57:43Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The victims aren’t owed anyone’s life. They are entitled to justice. You contradict yourself. > [@](#): > > The death penalty serves nothing not achieved by life in prison to that end. It denies them the privilege of living out their life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/204 "2014-12-25T19:00:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So far as anyone has been able to show, no innocent person _has_ been unjustly executed in recent decades. Would anything short of a judge overturning a judgment and declaring an executed person “not guilty” convince you? For that matter, _would_ such an action convince you? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/205 "2014-12-25T19:02:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You contradict yourself. > > It denies them the privilege of living out their life in prison. Please explain my contradiction. A life for a life is not justice. My humanity is worth more than killing someone in the name of justice. Society gains not a whit more by having the convicted live out their lives in prison vs killing them. In fact, society gains by not having to live with the risk innocent blood on our hands. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/206 "2014-12-25T19:13:13Z")
If the death penalty is the be all and end all of deterring crimes and meting out justice, how do all the other countries, of which the USA is part of a minuscule minority, manage to keep a civilized society? We do so many people find the need to justify hitting kids as required for discipline, police violence as a given, the right to use guns as necessary to protect oneself from any threat, and killing as punishment. Why do we think our society has to be so violent in order to be civilized? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/207 "2014-12-25T20:00:13Z")
Deleted because true, but against GD rules. But still true. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/208 "2014-12-25T20:23:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > O.k. then- “beyond a reasonable doubt”. If a person is innocent until found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then in my mind that person is innocent. > Now, what about [this link](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire) that **White SIFL** provided? Would you say that that executed man was probably innocent? Bumping in hopes we might get an answer. In the meantime, > [@Smapti](#): > > So far as anyone has been able to show, no innocent person has been unjustly executed in recent decades. Maybe Smapti want to take a whack at it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/209 "2014-12-25T20:35:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It denies them the privilege of living out their life in prison. That’s not a privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/210 "2014-12-25T21:13:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would anything short of a judge overturning a judgment and declaring an executed person “not guilty” convince you? For that matter, _would_ such an action convince you? Yes. It would. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/211 "2014-12-25T21:15:12Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Please explain my contradiction. A life for a life is not justice. How is it _not_? If anything, the injustice is that scum like Timothy McVeigh murdered 168 people, but only died for it once. > [@](#): > > Society gains not a whit more by having the convicted live out their lives in prison vs killing them. In fact, society gains by not having to live with the risk innocent blood on our hands. What has society lost from the absence of Timothy McVeigh? What would society gain if he were still drawing breath on the taxpayer’s dime? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/212 "2014-12-25T21:16:13Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If the death penalty is the be all and end all of deterring crimes and meting out justice, how do all the other countries, of which the USA is part of a minuscule minority, manage to keep a civilized society? They do not. > [@](#): > > We do so many people find the need to justify hitting kids as required for discipline, police violence as a given, the right to use guns as necessary to protect oneself from any threat, and killing as punishment. Why do we think our society has to be so violent in order to be civilized? The threat of violence is what _keeps_ people civilized. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/213 "2014-12-25T21:19:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What has society lost from the absence of Timothy McVeigh? What would society gain if he were still drawing breath on the taxpayer’s dime? I’ve already explained that. I’m done repeating myself > [@Smapti](#): > > They do not. > > The threat of violence is what _keeps_ people civilized. France, England, Canada… These aren’t civilized societies? Lord, my parents endured the worst atrocities imaginable during the Holocaust and retained more humanity than you seem to espouse. I just don’t think they’re is any point in further engagement. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/214 "2014-12-25T21:24:00Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > France, England, Canada… These aren’t civilized societies? Karla Homolka is a free woman and not a corpse, so yes, Canada is not civilized. Thomas Hamilton, if he had not killed himself, would be alive today, so yes, the UK is not civilized. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/215 "2014-12-25T21:57:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Karla Homolka is a free woman and not a corpse, so yes, Canada is not civilized. > > Thomas Hamilton, if he had not killed himself, would be alive today, so yes, the UK is not civilized. Those are ugly statements. ---
**Author:** ![Gilgaflesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@Gilgaflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilgaflesh)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/216 "2014-12-25T21:59:31Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The death penalty is irrevocable. If an error is found the convict can be released and an attempt to compensate him for lost time can be attempted. If the death penalty is implemented and an error is found there is nothing you can do to even attempt to compensate the victim. However, even in a perfect system I’d be opposed to the death penalty. Incarceration shoukd keep even a hope of redemption for the person. Even if they live their lives in jail they have the chance to change their lives around. If you kill them you’ve removed any hope of reclaiming their humanity. > > The choice is not death or squalor. The prison system such be fair and humane. The death penalty is irrevocable, that is true. Although from what I have read, the mental damage inflicted by a long prison sentence is also often irrevocable. Former inmates are often less able to handle society after prison time than before. But admittedly, there is _a chance_ to recuperate. The redemption angle would be an argument if dealing with a healthy prison system, one for which redemption was the goal and which provides prisoners with an environment in which becoming a better person was likely. The American prison is not an example of this. Take the maximum security prisons used for gangmembers for instance. New inmates are often forced to kill another inmate of an opposing gang, or at least give it a good try. You go in as a violent criminal that hasn’t yet crossed the line, and if you ever leave you do so as a heavily traumatized murderer. Frankly death sounds like the more ethical choice with such a system, since it is better for both the world and the criminal. My point is that, if you wish a fairer system, stopping capital punishment shouldn’t be a priority. First change the basis of the US based prison system from punishment to redemption based, give them an environment in which redemption is more than just a literal chance in hell. Then you can worry about keeping them alive. Now you just prolong their misery and destroy even more of their humanity and mental state… it doesn’t make sense to me. Now the prison systems in certain European countries, for instance, are different. Cells are clean and contain furniture, yes they look like hotel rooms but they do the job. There is a much higher re-integration rate of former inmates than in the US, virtually never rape or violence, let alone rioting. I can see the point of not killing them in such a country, in America I don’t see it. In the US saving people is clearly not the goal after all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/217 "2014-12-25T22:13:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Karla Homolka is a free woman and not a corpse, so yes, Canada is not civilized. > > Thomas Hamilton, if he had not killed himself, would be alive today, so yes, the UK is not civilized. These are ridiculous statements. Your views on what makes a society civilized are irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/218 "2014-12-25T22:18:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These are ridiculous statements. Your views on what makes a society civilized are irrational. Why do Karla Homolka and Thomas Hamilton deserve to be alive? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/219 "2014-12-25T22:21:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why do Karla Homolka and Thomas Hamilton deserve to be alive? Why is the only other alternative is that they be corpses? How many corpses would Canada have to produce to reach “civilized” status for you? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/220 "2014-12-25T22:27:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why is the only other alternative is that they be corpses? How many corpses would Canada have to produce to reach “civilized” status for you? And who gets to decide who lives and who is deserving of death? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549.md?page=12)