# Executed child found to be innocent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549 "2014-12-18T04:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/61 "2014-12-18T16:24:12Z")
Are you going to come up with cites for numerous and very recent cases in which we know that innocent people were executed - yes or no? So far all you have come up with is a case which isn’t numerous, isn’t recent, and in which by your own admission you have not been able to show innocence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/62 "2014-12-18T16:29:51Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > Bolding mine. This does still happen today. In fact, we just had a CLE about _Batson_ and you would be amazed how much prosecutors get away with in Southern courtrooms, excusing jurors of color. The statistics are actually really really sad. I’ll dig 'em up if you want. Twelve years ago, I said: > [@Constitutional protection against jurors whose name begins with the letter "G"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-protection-against-jurors-whose-name-begins-with-the-letter-g/113296/19): > > It also means that prosecutors – because, let’s face it: prosecutors are, nine times out of ten, the ones defending Batson challenges – are almost encouraged to come up with BS reasons for their strikes. “I struck him because he’s too old/too young/unemployed/employed as a \_\_\_\_\_\_/dressed too shabbily/dressed too expensively/wouldn’t answer my questions/spoke up too much/is married/isn’t married…” The list can be endless, and the system encourages lying… er, creative explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/63 "2014-12-18T16:31:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, yes, if you can’t come up with evidence or even stick to a reasonable standard of proof, then you are wasting everyone’s time. > > If you are going to assert something as fact, don’t complain when you aren’t believed without proof. > > Regards, > Shodan Lets put it this way. An employee of yours give you a 50 page document. He proof reads the first five pages and finds three typos which he corrects, then gives you the document claiming that it is error free. After all he didn’t see any errors that he didn’t correct. Do you believe him? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/64 "2014-12-18T16:33:05Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Lets put it this way. An employee of yours give you a 50 page document. He proof reads the first five pages and finds three typos which he corrects, then gives you the document claiming that it is error free. After all he didn’t see any errors that he didn’t correct. Do you believe him? Are you going to come up with cites for numerous and very recent cases in which we know that innocent people were executed? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/65 "2014-12-18T16:48:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So 7 of 9 witnesses recanted their testimony, a former FBI director speaks out against the execution along with the pope and a president. If only Troy Davis had his day in court to present all that evidence. [Oh wait. He did.](http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf) “Ultimately, while Mr. Davis’s new evidence casts some additional, minimal doubt on his conviction, it is largely smoke and mirrors. The vast majority of the evidence at trial remains intact, and the new evidence is largely not credible or lacking in probative value.” and “For the above stated reasons, this Court concludes that executing an innocent person would violate the Eighth Amendment of the United States Constitution. However, Mr. Davis is not innocent …” ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/66 "2014-12-18T16:57:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are you going to come up with cites for numerous and very recent cases in which we know that innocent people were executed? > > Regards, > Shodan I’m going to ask you - do you think that your question is a fair question: do you sincerely believe it is a good faith argument that the DP is OK? I know you know, or at least I know you’ve been told numerous times on these boards, that once an execution is carried out, the state closes the case. You can’t get the evidence to test. Further, there’s only DNA evidence in about 10% of capital cases. So while we know we have screwed up several hundred capital convictions and caught them in time (post conviction, pre-execution, obviously), there are 90% that don’t have any DNA to test. Being perfectly honest, and not cagy, I say those two facts make me certain that the US has executed an innocent person sometime since 1976. How many? Obviously I don’t know. [1389 people](http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm) have been executed since then. [139 people](http://www.r-a-e.org/about/facts-exoneration) have been exonerated, mostly by DNA. But[DNA evidence doesn’t exist](http://www.amazon.com/False-Justice-Eight-Convict-Innocent/dp/1607144670#reader_1607144670)in most cases. It’s a similar argument to tobacco causing lung cancer. I could be coy and ask you to prove any particular person who died of lung cancer died because they smoked. And you could give me person after person who smoked and died of lung cancer, and I could dismiss every one. You never know with a particular person. And it’s true - the only way we know tobacco causes lung cancer is overwhelming statistical probability of the masses. So, do you accept that a sufficiently large, post-conviction exoneration rate where DNA evidence exists, together with a sufficiently large number of convictions \*without \*DNA evidence, could theoretically demonstrate that the US justice system has executed innocent people? Let’s not even argue about numbers right now - do you accept that argument in general, if both sets are \*sufficiently \*large, we’ve been killing innocents? I think the answer to that question could make this back-and-forth come to a close. And, by they way, I beseech you (and everyone) to read _ **False Justice** _, written by a _pro-death-penalty_ Republican former Attorney General (state of Ohio). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/67 "2014-12-18T17:14:07Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I’m going to ask you - do you think that your question is a fair question… Given the assertion that there are numerous and very recent cases in which we know that innocent people were executed, yes, it is a fair question. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/68 "2014-12-18T17:19:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Given the assertion that there are numerous and very recent cases in which we know that innocent people were executed, yes, it is a fair question. > > Regards, > Shodan And given the standards you are willing to accept, _nobody_ is innocent because the courts rule “Not Guilty”, not “Innocent”. Congratulations, you win the thread. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/69 "2014-12-18T17:23:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So that’s two second-hand reports of confession, but none to any law enforcement, and none that were actually recorded or documented and signed by Willingham, right? That and the multiple witnesses who heard him say “You’re not the one who was supposed to die” over his daughter’s casket. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/70 "2014-12-18T17:27:16Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It is for me, because, despite not believing that the death penalty is a deterrent, I have no theoretical issue with executing a murderer (depending on circumstances). As far as the deterrence aspect, the reason it is not a deterrence is that the ultimate punishment—death—is too far removed from the crime. I’d like to see the DP used much less often, only in instances of complete certainty, an super swiftly. These 20-plus waits on death row are unhelpful in the extreme. I also would take the DP off the table for any crime committed by a minor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/71 "2014-12-18T17:27:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That and the multiple witnesses who heard him say “You’re not the one who was supposed to die” over his daughter’s casket. That’s not a confession. For all we know, he was saying “God should have taken me, not you”, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/72 "2014-12-18T17:29:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That and the multiple witnesses who heard him say “You’re not the one who was supposed to die” over his daughter’s casket. Something many a grief-stricken parent has said over the casket of their child, because the child is supposed to outlive the parent. Grasp that straw any tighter and it might leave a permanent imprint on your palms. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/73 "2014-12-18T17:32:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That and the multiple witnesses who heard him say “You’re not the one who was supposed to die” over his daughter’s casket. I’d wager that 90% of parents grieving their child’s death say something to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/74 "2014-12-18T17:58:50Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > What you’re doing, Smapti, is demanding absolute proof that a person who was executed (in this century) is actually innocent. Of course we can’t provide such an example… What you’re trying to assert though is that there is no good evidence for innocent people being executed recently. That’s what I disagree with. You admit that there’s no evidence, and then say you disagree with me for saying there’s no evidence. The “innocent man wrongly executed” is a phantom, a boogeyman, a mythical creature chased fruitlessly by anti-DP advocates, based on a belief that every person involved in the trial and appeals process, defendant, prosecutor, counsel, judges, jurors, witnesses, _everyone_ involved is either massively incompetent or sociopathic and reckless with human life. _If_ an innocent person were to be executed, it would be a tragedy, and one that would demand answers, explanations, and changes to stop that mistake from happening again. But it would not invalidate the death penalty itself as a necessary tool of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/75 "2014-12-18T18:01:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You admit that there’s no evidence, Point out this “admission”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/76 "2014-12-18T18:05:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But it would not invalidate the death penalty itself as a necessary tool of justice. It would (and already has) in my mind. In my view, the death penalty adds nothing in terms of deterrence and overall justice that isn’t accomplished by life imprisonment, and carries with it the risk of an irreversible punishment for an innocent person. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/77 "2014-12-18T18:16:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And given the standards you are willing to accept, _nobody_ is innocent because the courts rule “Not Guilty”, not “Innocent”. Congratulations, you win the thread. :rolleyes: I am anti-death-penalty. But my goodness, the responses to **Shodan** are absurd. The obvious answer is that the specific claim he’s responding to was wrong. It’s simply not true that there have been " numerous and very recent cases in which we know that innocent people were executed." Admit that. Then point out that this was an foolishly and inartfully presented claim. The more compelling and defensible claim is: given the existence of cases that made it through trial and resulted in a death penalty sentence, and were later found to be flawed based on DNA evidence, it would be highly unlikely that other death penalty cases without DNA evidence were completely error-free. Therefore, it’s virtually certain that we have executed SOME people that were actually innocent. It’s highly likely that were more than one. As the number rises, it becomes less and less likely: it’s very likely we’ve executed two; somewhat likely we’ve executed 20; possible but unlikely we’ve executed 100 innocent people. Shodan? Comments on the foregoing? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/78 "2014-12-18T18:19:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Point out this “admission”. As I quoted previously (emphasis mine); > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > What you’re doing, Smapti, is demanding absolute proof that a person who was executed (in this century) is actually innocent. **Of course we can’t provide such an example**. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/79 "2014-12-18T18:50:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As far as the deterrence aspect, the reason it is not a deterrence is that the ultimate punishment—death—is too far removed from the crime. I’d like to see the DP used much less often, only in instances of complete certainty, an super swiftly. These 20-plus waits on death row are unhelpful in the extreme. I also would take the DP off the table for any crime committed by a minor. I don’t believe this. I essentially think that if people were really considering what they’re about to do and what the consequences could be for them, threatening them with a 10 year sentence would be enough of a deterrent for most crimes. Nobody wants to wreck his life and spend his next ten years in a jail. People are killing other people over 1 000. Any rational person, even a psychopath who doesn't care about killing, would realize that 1000 isn’t even worth 6 months of jail time. Any reasonable individual thinking “wait, I might get caught and spend the next year in jail” would forget about the killing and the $ 1000. If even the risk of a life sentence doesn’t deter them, adding a death penalty won’t, either. A jail sentence doesn’t deter them not because it’s not harsh enough, but because they don’t think they’ll be caught, or more likely don’t think at all. You can threaten them with 20 years, with a life sentence, with death…it won’t change a thing because they’ll keep not thinking or at least not fearing the consequences. Only when they’ll actually get caught will they begin to worry about the sentence and be frightened by the death penalty. Not before the crime is being committed, when fear would actually serve a purpose. Basically, I believe that in the overwhelming majority of cases, no sentence above some relatively low level is a deterrent. People are going to be deterred by 10 years or they aren’t going to be deterred at all. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/80 "2014-12-18T18:51:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > As I quoted previously (emphasis mine); You are aware that “absolute proof” and “evidence” are not the same thing, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549.md?page=5)