# Executed child found to be innocent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549 "2014-12-18T04:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/141 "2014-12-22T15:24:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The man was given a fair trial before a jury of his peers. He was found guilty and sentenced to death. He received all the appeals that he was entitled to, none of them resulted in a different verdict, and his sentence was carried out. > > At what point was “due process and actual law” disregarded? You were responding to the veracity and legality of his _confession_. The fact that he told it to random people and not through due process seemed good enough to you. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/142 "2014-12-22T16:33:34Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You were responding to the veracity and legality of his _confession_. The fact that he told it to random people and not through due process seemed good enough to you. What “due process” is one required to confess through in order for it to count? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/143 "2014-12-22T16:37:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Even in the OP case, the only exonerating evidence is that the boy’s sister or family says they were with him all that day… and of course, no actually guilty person has ever had a family member perjure themselves in an attempt to protect them. Especially 63 years after the fact. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/144 "2014-12-22T16:50:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What “due process” is one required to confess through in order for it to count? Well, first of all, it should really occur and not in the drug addled mind of a jailhouse snitch, who made up a story in return for favors from the DA. He also recnated his testimony twice. > **[The Prosecutor and the Snitch](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/08/03/did-texas-execute-an-innocent-man-willingham)** > > Did Texas execute an innocent man? A complaint was made vs the DA :_“Jackson’s conduct “violated his professional, ethical and constitutional obligations.” The group called for a full investigation of Jackson’s handling of the case and argued that he could be sanctioned or even criminally prosecuted for falsifying official records, withholding evidence from the defense, suborning perjury and obstructing justice. Jackson’s conduct, according to the complaint, “violated core principles of the legal profession, and did so with terrible consequences … the execution of an innocent man.””_ As far as the 'confession" to his Ex-wife? AFAIK, it was never even admitted as evidence, due to how many times she changed her story. [http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Myths\_and\_Facts\_about\_the\_Willingham\_Case.php](http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Myths_and_Facts_about_the_Willingham_Case.php) \*Myth: There is credible and reliable new information that Willingham confessed to his ex-wife. Facts: • About Willingham’s ex-wife, Stacy Kuykendall, even John Jackson (who prosecuted Willingham and steadfastly believes he was guilty) says: “She’s given very different stories about what happened on this particular day right up to the date of his execution…It’s hard for me to make heads or tails of anything she said or didn’t say.” • In 2004, Stacy Kuykendall told the Chicago Tribune that he never confessed, and she said the same to The New Yorker in 2009. \* ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/145 "2014-12-22T16:56:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What “due process” is one required to confess through in order for it to count? Seriously? You can’t envision a scenario in which a “confession” might not be admissible or be even true to make the idea of due process silly? From the accused it should be witnessed by a officer of the court (DA, police etc), signed by defendant, not occur under duress, and with the defendant given all his rights. If it’s reported from a second party it should not fall under hearsay and validated to be credible (is the person reporting the so-called confession credible and believable). Normal due process. Otherwise anybody could say anyone confessed to anything and the police are just obligated to believe them? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/146 "2014-12-22T16:57:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What “due process” is one required to confess through in order for it to count? Must be admitted in court. That’s 'due process". ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/147 "2014-12-22T16:59:46Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You were responding to the veracity and legality of his _confession_. The fact that he told it to random people and not through due process seemed good enough to you. Huh? If I say to you, “Last night I killed Anna Ada,” and you repeat that statement at my trial for the murder of Ms. Ada, is that some denial of due process for me? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/148 "2014-12-22T17:12:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Must be admitted in court. That’s 'due process". So it’s not good enough that he admitted to murdering his children, because he didn’t repeat it often enough and in the company of the right people. So noted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/149 "2014-12-22T17:14:53Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Seriously? You can’t envision a scenario in which a “confession” might not be admissible or be even true to make the idea of due process silly? > > From the accused it should be witnessed by a officer of the court (DA, police etc), signed by defendant, not occur under duress, and with the defendant given all his rights. If it’s reported from a second party it should not fall under hearsay and validated to be credible (is the person reporting the so-called confession credible and believable). > > Normal due process. Otherwise anybody could say anyone confessed to anything and the police are just obligated to believe them? Isn’t the question of whether the second party is believable and credible a question of fact for the jury? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/150 "2014-12-22T18:09:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it’s not good enough that he admitted to murdering his children I get that the issue is getting all cloudy and stuff, and people are focusing on tangents rather than the issue, but it’s pretty clear that Willingham never admitted to murdering his children. A snitch claimed he did, but he was lying. I don’t know why you would trust his testimony over Willingham’s, since Willingham could have also benefited from confessing. His wife was just bonkers in her testimony. Further, confessions aren’t great pieces of evidence. Lots of people exonerated by DNA had confessed to crimes they hadn’t committed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/151 "2014-12-22T18:33:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it’s not good enough that he admitted to murdering his children, because he didn’t repeat it often enough and in the company of the right people. So noted. But- _he never made that admission._ Both people who made that claim have recanted several time and were of dubious veracity. His ex was so dubious even the DA wouldnt let her testify- and _he_ actually had 'experts" testify that Willingham was guilty to to his rock posters and tattoo. So- he never confessed. Anyone who said he did lied and recanted. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/152 "2014-12-22T18:45:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Huh? > > If I say to you, “Last night I killed Anna Ada,” and you repeat that statement at my trial for the murder of Ms. Ada, is that some denial of due process for me? No. I assume if you’re being used as a witness someone has decided you’re credible. That’s the sure process I specifically was referring to relating to second hand admissions. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/153 "2014-12-22T18:50:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Isn’t the question of whether the second party is believable and credible a question of fact for the jury? Sure, it certainly can be. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/154 "2014-12-22T18:58:54Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > No. I assume if you’re being used as a witness someone has decided you’re credible. That’s the sure process I specifically was referring to relating to second hand admissions. OK. And in Willingham’s trial, did he suffer a denial of due process? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/155 "2014-12-22T19:14:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. And in Willingham’s trial, did he suffer a denial of due process? I made no claim either way regarding this specific trial since I’m not familiar with all the info. I was responding to a specific post about a general concept about how confessions in general can require due process. You can take your Socratic method attempt to make a point somewhere else. If you have something to say just say it. I’m not in your class and don’t need you to teach me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/156 "2014-12-22T19:19:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. And in Willingham’s trial, did he suffer a denial of due process? Even if there was no denial of due process, would _you_ say _justice_ was served? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/157 "2014-12-22T19:35:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even if there was no denial of due process, would _you_ say _justice_ was served? A man who murdered his children paid for his crime. Justice was served. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/158 "2014-12-22T19:37:14Z")
Justice is the process that protects all of us from the tyranny of the government. If due process is swept under the rug because we just need this guy to pay, none of us are safe. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/159 "2014-12-22T19:40:32Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Justice is the process that protects all of us from the tyranny of the government. You’ve got that backwards. Justice is the process by which the government protects us from the mob - you know, those guys in the streets chanting for dead cops. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549/160 "2014-12-22T19:46:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’ve got that backwards. Justice is the process by which the government protects us from the mob - you know, those guys in the streets chanting for dead cops. That’s got absolutely nothing to do with what’s being talked about in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-child-found-to-be-innocent/707549.md?page=9)