# Executed man found innocent. Just wonderful. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310 "2005-11-22T20:04:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/261 "2005-11-29T04:43:05Z")
> [@Diane](#): > > The most stupid fucking argument you have ever heard around here? OHHHHH BROTHER, talk about :rolleyes:-ing. You either (1) didn’t understand what I wrote, (2) over exaggerate for dramatic appearances, (3) really haven’t been around much because there really have been some VERY. STUPID. ARGUMENTS. around this place that I can’t even hold a candle to. > > Please explain in your infinite ability to recognize “stupid fucking arguments”, why it is a “stupid fucking argument”. Tell me why the killing of an innocent prisoner is any more, or less, repungant than the killing any other innocent person. And- _you win, hands down._ It isn’t your argument that “the killing of an innocent prisoner is any more, or less, repungant than the killing any other innocent person” that is stupid. That’s just “Hey, I don’t approve of the death Penalty”- which is a reasonable position. It’s the “So Shodan, are you willing to sacrifice your spouse, parent, brother, sister, child as one of the innocent people put to death by the DP?” statement which is the most stupid goddamn argument I have even seen on this board. And you share this honor with **plnnr**. (And I was around during jack-whats-his-face and his constant debates against circumcision- and you got _him_ beat.) Being against the death penalty isn’t stupid- in fact it can often be 'the moral high ground". But \*your \*argument _is_ **the most stupid fucking argument in the history of the SDMB. You win.** Congrats. Come by and pick up your trophy sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/262 "2005-11-29T05:28:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And- _you win, hands down._ It isn’t your argument that “the killing of an innocent prisoner is any more, or less, repungant than the killing any other innocent person” that is stupid. That’s just “Hey, I don’t approve of the death Penalty”- which is a reasonable position. It’s the “So Shodan, are you willing to sacrifice your spouse, parent, brother, sister, child as one of the innocent people put to death by the DP?” statement which is the most stupid goddamn argument I have even seen on this board. And you share this honor with **plnnr**. > > (And I was around during jack-whats-his-face and his constant debates against circumcision- and you got _him_ beat.) > > Being against the death penalty isn’t stupid- in fact it can often be 'the moral high ground". But \*your \*argument _is_ **the most stupid fucking argument in the history of the SDMB. You win.** Congrats. Come by and pick up your trophy sometime. Shodan is so willing to sacrifice the innocent death row prisoners, why is it a stupid question to ask him if he would be so willing if the prisoner happened to be a family member? Would he be so willing to send prisoner to the gas chamber if one of those prisoners happened to be someone he loved and who he truly believed was innocent? There are people on death row whose families are fighting for their lives because of overwhelming evidence showing they are innocent. ([www.wm3.org](http://www.wm3.org) for example) Would Shodan make any attempt to save the lives of his own loved ones or is he so firmly set in his belief that a few innocent prisoners put to death is worth some bizarre payoff that he would be willing to sacrifice their lives? Go ahead and think it is a stupid question and I will go on thinking you are a moronic jackass who doesn’t understand the reason behind the question. While we are at it, please explain exactly why this is an award winning stupid question. Did you even understand the question? My guess is no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/263 "2005-11-29T05:28:54Z")
Incidentally- there _are_ many good arguments aginst the DP: 1. It’s not moral. 2. We are doing to the killer what we have said is the ultimate wrong. 3. We have a (very small but still there) chance of executing the wrong person. And we should not be making that decision if so. There is also a good answer to Shodans argument (which is _extremely_ well done, BTW): Yes, statistically speaking, by letting 100 killers live that means the odds are that one innocent will die because of it. This is mathematically & logically true. But the _moral_ counter to this is; “Yes, but then the killer has made the choice to kill again. If WE kill him, WE are making the choice to kill. I choose not to make that choice.” However- “_But would you want your sister to marry one???_” is still the stupidest fucking argument made here. Ever. of course- the perfect count to that stpuid fucking argument is “But would YOU want YOUR spouse, parent, brother, sister, child to be the one that the escaped convicted killer find when he gets out & tortures to death?” So- even though this _is_ the PIT and we don’t demand perfect debating behaviours and 100% logical debates- this is still the goddamn **SDMB,** and Ignorance is still wrong- PIT or no PIT. And- that’s an Ignorant argument. I am neither Pro nor Con on the DP incidentally. Morally I am against it, but Logically I am for it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/264 "2005-11-29T11:30:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However- “_But would you want your sister to marry one???_” is still the stupidest fucking argument made here. Ever. of course- the perfect count to that stpuid fucking argument is “But would YOU want YOUR spouse, parent, brother, sister, child to be the one that the escaped convicted killer find when he gets out & tortures to death?” As the one who originally raised this argument, I’d like to remind folks that I did so **in response to** some jackass asking me whether I’d be willing to let a killer go if he killed my family. I deliberately raised it as a stupid argument to show that it was a stupid argument, and said so in the post wherein I raised it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/265 "2005-11-29T11:35:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I have not conceded this. Especially since we are not talking about hypothetical wrongs, but actual murders. Gah! No, we’re not–you are. There are two sets of murders here: Actual murders, which put people behind bars, and which cannot be stopped by the death penalty. Hypothetical murders, which people who have been convicted of murder in the future may commit, and which may be prevented by the death penalty. It’s the latter set of murders that I’ve been discussing. If you’ve been discussing the former, can you explain their relevance to **jsgoddess’s** statement? > [@](#): > > As well as do a number of assholes. > > The reasons for providing the cites that I did was to establish that a prison wall is not a guarantee that a convict will not murder again. Even inside prison walls. It doesn’t need vast numbers of statistics, any more than one clear case would be needed to show that occasionally, an innocent person might be executed. > > Is it absolutely guaranteed that some one sentenced to life without parole will never present a danger to the public again? No, it is not. Is it absolutely guaranteed that some one executed will never present a danger to the public again? > > What do you think? I think you DO need vast numbers of statistics, if you’re standing by the bloody calculus that I think you’ve proposed. That calculus states that by strapping innocent people down to tables every now and then and poisoning them to death (chanting of the black Mass optional), we can ultimately prevent more innocent people from being murdered, tortured, etc… Your bloody calculus works best if it’s very clear that there are a lot of innocent people being killed by convicted murderers serving a life without parole sentence. If that’s not the case, then there are solutions to the problem that aren’t as severe as your bloody calculus. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/266 "2005-11-29T12:32:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is also a good answer to Shodans argument (which is _extremely_ well done, BTW): Yes, statistically speaking, by letting 100 killers live that means the odds are that one innocent will die because of it. This is mathematically & logically true. No; more precisely, the statistics show that if you pick 100 convicted killers that were let _go_, then just over one of them will have been re-arrested for murder within three years. I have spent quite some time demonstrating that: [ul][li]This does not mean that DP is the only alternative to letting them go,[/li][li]it does not mean that the DP is the only way of lowering that recidivism, and[/li][li]it does not mean that the DP represents a net benefit in terms of innocent lives.[/ul][/li]If you examine **Shodan** ’s argument, you find that it is far from “extremely well done”; it is based on facile simplifications and obvious misunderstandings, but most of all a complete abuse of statistical certainty. I understand that you oppose the DP on moral grounds, as do I. However, I would urge you to re-evaluate the analytic argument, as it seems to me that there is no reason to cede this ground to DP proponents. I’ve shown most of **Shodan** ’s figures to be out by at least an order of magnitude, with remaining unexaminable assumptions giving uncertainties of as much again. To me, logically and mathematically, the figures show that we can have no reasonable idea whether the DP as practiced represents a net saving of lives, and still less idea whether **Shodan** ’s proposal to execute all murderers would be beneficial. This leaves us either to base our decision on moral grounds, or seek better numbers. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/267 "2005-11-29T12:47:49Z")
> [@black455](#): > > I mean a percentage where you, personally, draw the line. Not some weighted system of net cost or benefit to society based on hypothetical post-release murder rates, but exactly how many innocent people you are willing to have put to death in order to maintain capital punishment. > > As in, “I, Shodan, am comfortable with the notion that \_\_\_\_\_\_ out of every 100 executed murderers are actually innocent, but no more.” > > For me it’s any percentage greater than zero. What about you? I’m genuinely interested in the answer to this question. How many are we talking about, here? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/268 "2005-11-29T13:11:18Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > As the one who originally raised this argument, I’d like to remind folks that I did so **in response to** some jackass asking me whether I’d be willing to let a killer go if he killed my family. I deliberately raised it as a stupid argument to show that it was a stupid argument, and said so in the post wherein I raised it. > > Daniel Well, then, that jackass also gets his name on the trophy. 😛 I certainly agree- it is a damn stupid argument. **Black455** - what is “innocent”? A- Completely innocent of any violent crimes B Innocent of any murders/captial crimes. c. Innocent of\* this\* murder d. The new evidence would - if presented then- give the original jury “resonable doubt”. But- maybe he really did it. E. The new evidence- if presented now- would get an Appeals court to overrule the conviction. But- maybe he really did it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/269 "2005-11-29T13:31:33Z")
> [@black455](#): > > As in, “I, Shodan, am comfortable with the notion that \_\_\_\_\_\_ out of every 100 executed murderers are actually innocent, but no more.” Leading and materially false question. The number is more like “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ out of every **10000** executed murderers.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/270 "2005-11-29T14:36:42Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It’s the latter set of murders that I’ve been discussing. If you’ve been discussing the former, can you explain their relevance to **jsgoddess’s** statement? I’ve been discussing both. By executing for the former, we prevent the latter as a side benefit. The relevance to her statement was that she stated that it is OK to execute the truely guilty, and that it is moral to punish for committed wrongs. Thus the DP is morally OK. > [@](#): > > Your bloody calculus works best if it’s very clear that there are a lot of innocent people being killed by convicted murderers serving a life without parole sentence. If that’s not the case, then there are solutions to the problem that aren’t as severe as your bloody calculus. No, you only need a few. The premise of the OP seems to be that one single instance of an allegedly innocent person being executed invalidates the whole concept of the DP. My premise is that, since I can point to multiple instances of murders committed by those still in prison, LWOP is even more invalidated as a measure to protect the public. Since then we seem to have shifted arguments, so that one innocent execution outweighs a dozen innocent victims of murder for reasons that have not made clear. And indeed, that the whole notion of fact-based argumentation is off-topic, since the DP opponents have freely admitted that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. It is essentially a case of special pleading. > [@Dead Badger](#): > > Bullshit, it is. All we know is that the number of wrongful executions we know about at the moment is one in a thousand. How you can possibly claim that this is the absolute maximum is beyond me. A week ago the “maximum” was zero. Who knows what the “maximum” will be ten years hence? The word you are seeking is minimum, and it should bloody well worry you. Also, 1/987 is not “less than” 1/1000, it is “more than”. I realise that these trivial distinctions are irksome, but it would be nice if we could agree on such basic mathematical niceties as simple comparison. No, we don’t know that. You have stated yourself that Cantu’s innocence has not been established. If we assume that it has, then the maximum of executed innocents is, at most, one in a thousand. And, incidentally, if we want to nitpick about “basic mathematical niceties”, it’s 997, not 987. I’m repeating myself. And, as I mentioned, it’s a waste of time. You are assuming the figures are wrong, because you don’t want them to be right, and you don’t base your position on facts at all. > [@Diane](#): > > There are people on death row whose families are fighting for their lives because of overwhelming evidence showing they are innocent. ([www.wm3.org](http://www.wm3.org) for example) So, is the DNA testing that you said was nearly complete a year and a half ago been started yet? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/271 "2005-11-29T14:39:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **Black455** - what is “innocent”? > > A- Completely innocent of any violent crimes > > B Innocent of any murders/captial crimes. > > c. Innocent of\* this\* murder > > d. The new evidence would - if presented then- give the original jury “resonable doubt”. But- maybe he really did it. > > E. The new evidence- if presented now- would get an Appeals court to overrule the conviction. But- maybe he really did it. I’d pick “all of the above,” because that’s how the legal system (supposedly) works. But anybody who has the balls to actually state how many innocent people they’re willing to execute is welcome to break it down in to “actually” and “technically” innocent. I’d like a figure for both, though. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Leading and materially false question. The number is more like “\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ out of every **10000** executed murderers.” You’re wrong. It’s more like 1/987, _minimum_. That’s .001%, for those of you playing at home. I’m just looking for the error rate that **Shodan** , and you, I guess, are comfortable with. We can play hi-lo if you want. Is it more than 1%? Less than 50%? ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/272 "2005-11-29T14:54:17Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I’m really sick and tired of the suck-ass attitude toward Texas that people display simply because they don’t like the death penalty. Fuck’em **Clothahump**. They’re all a bunch of whiney jealous bitches who know not of which they speak. Just let them go about there pathetic little hum-drum lives while we bask in the glory that is Texas. Nothing they could possibly say could ever take away that with which we have been blessed, much less merit a response. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/273 "2005-11-29T14:59:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, we don’t know that. You have stated yourself that Cantu’s innocence has not been established. Would you please quit putting words in my mouth? My position is that his innocence is obvious by any reasonable standard, and that there is no method by which it can be “established” to your satisfaction. As I have already pointed out, this is a far fucking cry from “admitting” anything. > [@](#): > > If we assume that it has, then the maximum of executed innocents is, at most, one in a thousand. So by your logic, if we assume that there has been at least one innocent executed, giving an error rate of 1/997, then the error rate must somehow be _less_ than that? How in the holy fuck do you work that out? Do you think he’s going to get less innocent as time passes? Do you think there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that any further error has been or will be committed? On what do you base this, other than blind faith? > [@](#): > > And, incidentally, if we want to nitpick about “basic mathematical niceties”, it’s 997, not 987. Oh, I do apologise; clearly not knowing the difference between “greater than” and “less than” is as nothing next to the horror of the Typo of Doom! > [@](#): > > I’m repeating myself. And, as I mentioned, it’s a waste of time. You are assuming the figures are wrong, because you don’t want them to be right, and you don’t base your position on facts at all. I’m not _assuming_ the figures are wrong, I’m _showing_ it. My position is that the facts that you claim support your position do no such thing. I have repeatedly shown this, in the face of your repeated prevarication and denial of the very basics of statistical certainty. I can thus disaver the validity of your argument both factually and morally. Just because I deny the facts support your argument does not mean that my own position is not fact-based. If you can’t grasp this very simple concept (and nothing in my prior experiences with you leads me to believe that you really are that stupid), then there simply is no point continuing, as you are missing the whole point of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/274 "2005-11-29T15:05:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ve been discussing both. By executing for the former, we prevent the latter as a side benefit. > > The relevance to her statement was that she stated that it is OK to execute the truely guilty, and that it is moral to punish for committed wrongs. Thus the DP is morally OK. I completely missed her saying any such thing. Can you link to it? > [@](#): > > The premise of the OP seems to be that one single instance of an allegedly innocent person being executed invalidates the whole concept of the DP. My premise is that, since I can point to multiple instances of murders committed by those still in prison, LWOP is even more invalidated as a measure to protect the public. > > Since then we seem to have shifted arguments, so that one innocent execution outweighs a dozen innocent victims of murder for reasons that have not made clear. And indeed, that the whole notion of fact-based argumentation is off-topic, since the DP opponents have freely admitted that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. It is essentially a case of special pleading. The problem, of course, is that when a guard gets murdered by an inmate, the onus isn’t on you to prove that the guard is innocent. When the state executes an inmate, the onus IS on us to prove that the inmate is innocent. It’s not the case that one instance of an innocent execution invalidates the concept of the DP. The argument is that this is one **that we’ve found out about** , and that there may well be more. If you can show that even true sentences of life without parole will result in more innocent deaths (of guards, for instance) than could conceivably accounted for by the execution of innocent people, then you’ll have a strong argument. I’ll still be likely to oppose the Death Penalty on other grounds, but I’ll concede you these grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/275 "2005-11-29T15:07:36Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I completely missed her saying any such thing. Can you link to it? Actually, I’ve just read all her posts to this thread, and I’m just about certain that she DIDN’T say any such thing. Are you confusing her with someone else? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/276 "2005-11-29T15:16:58Z")
> [@black455](#): > > I’d pick “all of the above,” because that’s how the legal system (supposedly) works. But anybody who has the balls to actually state how many innocent people they’re willing to execute is welcome to break it down in to “actually” and “technically” innocent. I think “actually” vs. “technically” is a useful distinction to be kept in mind. Since I am arguing morally, not legally. This is basically a counter to a lot of anti-DP arguments, which tend to combine assertions about actual innocence, where he really didn’t do it, to arguments about technical innocence, where the search that found the murder weapon was illegal or the instructions to the jury were wrong, things like that, and on into arguments that he merely shouldn’t get the DP, because his accomplice who testified against him only got twentyfive years, or such. These tend all to get conflated into “HE’S INNOCENT! THE SYSTEM IS UNFAIR!” I’m concerned mostly with actual innocence. If they found the weapon with his fingerprints on it, and the victim’s blood on his shoes, and he told his stoolie cellmate that he did it, then I tend to be untroubled by arguments that there weren’t enough blacks in the jury pool or the police failed to say “Mother may I?” > [@](#): > > You’re wrong. It’s more like 1/987, _minimum_. That’s .001%, for those of you playing at home. Actually, zero would be the minimum. Since Cantu’s innocence has not been conclusively demonstrated. And again, it’s 9 **9** 7, if you are citing the number of people executed in the US since 1976. > [@](#): > > I’m just looking for the error rate that **Shodan** , and you, I guess, are comfortable with. How about “one less than the number of innocent lives that would be lost to repeat murderers”? If you need a percent, then if you like your .001% figure, it would .0009%. > [@](#): > > Actually, I’ve just read all her posts to this thread, and I’m just about certain that she DIDN’T say any such thing. Are you confusing her with someone else? > > Daniel Cripes, Daniel, I thought **Diane** was fulfilling the role of Village Idiot in this thread. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > So you are in favor of executing murderers, then? > > Prove with 100% certainty that someone is the murderer and I’d be pretty okay with it. But you can’t, so I’m not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/277 "2005-11-29T15:24:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The relevance to her statement was that she stated that it is OK to execute the truely guilty, and that it is moral to punish for committed wrongs. Thus the DP is morally OK. To repeat, I said: > [@me!](#): > > Because it is more moral to react to the wrongdoing of others rather than assuming they will do wrong and killing them for it. My statement made NO REFERENCE to the death penalty for committed wrongs, or to any punishment. “React to” does not equal “kill for” or even “punish.” You keep reading my statement as “Because it is more moral to kill for the wrongdoing of others…” and that is not what I said. I did not define “react to.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/278 "2005-11-29T15:38:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cripes, Daniel, I thought **Diane** was fulfilling the role of Village Idiot in this thread. I didn’t say what you say I said (doo dah, doo dah), but I said something that could be understood as saying what you say I said (oh da doo dah day). In theory, I could be indifferent to the death penalty. I don’t think I would ever be in favor of it, because I think it’s stupid. But I think lots of things are stupid that I wouldn’t try to stop–like drug use or Carrot Top. For me to attain that indifference, certain standards would have to be met. Maybe I could say even that only one standard would have to be met. 100% certainty. So, you could argue that I am not anti-death penalty. On the other hand, since you could argue that 100% certainty is completely impossible (ooh, am I 100% certain of that?), then I am, for all intents and purposes, anti-death penalty. My standard cannot be met, certainly not by you. But if you want to claim I’m on your side, go for it. Most reasonable people would probably disagree with your characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/279 "2005-11-29T15:41:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [li]Assume for the moment that this executed person was innocent. My position all along was that a single or very few cases of innocent executions would not be sufficient to rule out the DP. Again, if one innocent execution means we can’t use the DP, wouldn’t 824 cases of innocent people killed by repeat murderers mean that we **must** use it? Thus, not using the DP is 824 times more likely to end an innocent life than to use it. [/li][ > Regards, > Shodan If I may jump in with a question, wouldn’t ‘life without parole’ eliminate those 824 murdered innocents? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/280 "2005-11-29T16:08:55Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If I may jump in with a question, wouldn’t ‘life without parole’ eliminate those 824 murdered innocents? _sigh_ I don’t want to jump down your throat. But, please, read the thread. I have provided several cites of people who killed while serving time in prison, who were not paroled. I have also mentioned Willie Horton, who was not prevented from committing several horrific acts of torture, rape and assault over a period of hours (although, admittedly, not a murder) by being sentenced to life without parole. Likewise for Ed Wein, who was also sentenced to life without parole before kidnapping, raping, and murdering a woman at a bus stop. So no, life without parole does not eliminate attacks, including murders, on the innocent. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Prove with 100% certainty that someone is the murderer and I’d be pretty okay with it. But you can’t, so I’m not. **Shodan** ’s Rule of Thumb: When I start repeating myself, and people start denying that they have said what they said, the thread is over. Unless someone has something new, I’m done. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310.md?page=15)