# Executed man found innocent. Just wonderful. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310 "2005-11-22T20:04:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/321 "2005-11-30T22:25:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, we’re not. If he had not been executed, we’d never have had this thread- and you know it (and so does Bricker). The whole point of this thread is: “\*\*executed \*\* man found innocent”. Not “convicted man found innocent”. And the argument is- that if we have made a mistake- then once we executed someone, we can’t undo it. Which is a pretty darn good argument. > > True, he wasn’t convicted of it- but he _admitted_ it. Generally, if you’re already sentenced to death, there is no reason for a prosecutor to try you agian for ADW or Attempted Murder. > > I agree that the risk of executing an innocent man is a sound argument against the DP. However, this is a very weak case to use as an example of it. So let’s review. Please summarize the evidence that you contend led to Mr. Cantu’s conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/322 "2005-11-30T23:04:47Z")
:::hands DrDeth the trophy::: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/323 "2005-11-30T23:13:52Z")
> [@Diane](#): > > :::hands DrDeth the trophy::: The amazing thing about that trophy is it was molded from an actual horse’s ass, so it’s very lifelike. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/324 "2005-12-01T00:01:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But you see- that is NOT what we are discussing now. Cantu- if he had simply been convicted of killing Gomez would not have been executed. Likely, by now he’d be out on parole, if not finished with his sentance. He was ONLY _executed_ because he shot a police officer four times without provocation. And we are not debating Cantu’s prison sentence- we’re debating his \*\*EXECUTION- \*\* which wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t savagely shot that Detective. Thus, the fact that he shot the police officer is very important evidence- which was \*admitted as evidence \* during the sentencing portion of the trial. If Cantu had just been convicted of killing Gomez we wouldn’t have this thread I’ve reread this several times, and I have to conclude that I don’t think you understand the whole concept of bifurcated trials. Cantu was “just convicted for killing Gomez,” or more specifically, convicted solely for the capital crime of murdering Pedro Gomez while committing a burglary. That’s it. He recieved no prison sentence for it. His sentence was death. No evidence of any kind concerning any other crimes, charged or uncharged, was admitted or in any way relevant in the guilt-innocence phase of his trial. I would restate what the evidence at that phase was, but I don’t want to spoil **Bricker’s** question and would like to hear what you believe it was. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/325 "2005-12-01T01:02:06Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I would restate what the evidence at that phase was, but I don’t want to spoil **Bricker’s** question and would like to hear what you believe it was. I’d also like to hear it. Alternatively, what I’d like would be for you to describe what the arguments would have been at each stage of the trial, **had Moreno recanted prior to the trial**. Speculate on what the jury would have decided at each stage, and support your speculation. Each aspect of this answer could be a single sentence. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/326 "2005-12-01T01:46:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So let’s review. > > Please summarize the evidence that you contend led to Mr. Cantu’s conviction. Ask stupid questions much? It’s your cite- your somewhat biased newspaper article sez there was nothing but Moreno’s testimony. But I have no idea what really led to it, as I haven’t talked to the Jurors or read the transcript of the trial- _and neither have you_. You seem to be basing your arguments on a single newspaper article! :dubious: _Have you read the trial transcript or not? \* It doesn’t really matter what Cantu was convicted of- because this thread and the OP are not about Cantu’s conviction. This thread, this debate is completely about Cantu’s **execution** - and the prime cause for_ that\* was Cantu’s ADMITTED cold-blooded murderous gunning down of a Police Officer. **IF** we are going to execute dudes becuase removing them from Society forever & completely makes Society safer- then executing someone who guns down police officers isn’t an injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/327 "2005-12-01T02:01:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesn’t really matter what Cantu was _convicted_ of- because this thread and the OP are not about Cantu’s _conviction_. This thread, this debate is completely about Cantu’s **execution** - and the prime cause for\* that\* was Cantu’s ADMITTED cold-blooded murderous gunning down of a Police Officer. What about my question: could you describe how you think the trial would have gone, had Moreno decided not to give his testimony? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/328 "2005-12-01T02:18:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ask stupid questions much? It’s your cite- your somewhat biased newspaper article sez there was nothing but Moreno’s testimony. But I have no idea what really led to it, as I haven’t talked to the Jurors or read the transcript of the trial- _and neither have you_. You seem to be basing your arguments on a single newspaper article! :dubious: \*Have you read the trial transcript or not? Nope. But I’ve read the apellate court opinions, which rely upon the trial transcripts. Unfortunately, they are not online, so I can’t link to them; they’re available through Nexis or Westlaw, which are subscription services. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t really matter what Cantu was convicted of- because this thread and the OP are not about Cantu’s conviction. This thread, this debate is completely about Cantu’s execution- and the prime cause for that was Cantu’s ADMITTED cold-blooded murderous gunning down of a Police Officer. So - Cantu was executed for a crime in which (a) no one died, and (b) was never charged or proved in court against him. Is that what you’re hanging your hat on now? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/329 "2005-12-01T02:21:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ask stupid questions much? It’s your cite- your somewhat biased newspaper article sez there was nothing but Moreno’s testimony. But I have no idea what really led to it, as I haven’t talked to the Jurors or read the transcript of the trial- _and neither have you_. You seem to be basing your arguments on a single newspaper article! :dubious: _Have you read the trial transcript or not?_ I’ve got another cite you might like then: _Cantu v. State of Texas_, 738 S.W.2d 249 (Tex.Crim.App. 1987). Moreno’s eyewitness testimony was the sole evidence linking Cantu to the shooting. Here’s another: “Juan Moreno, _the only witness who testified at trial as to what happened at the time of the shooting,_ stated that Pedro Gomez did not fire the .38 caliber handgun he was attempting to hand over to Cantu.” [_Cantu v. Collins_](http://www.romingerlegal.com/fifthcircuit/opinions/91-5512.0.wpd.html), 967 F.2d 1006, 1016 (5th Cir. 1992), cert. denied, 113 S.Ct. 3045 (1993). > [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesn’t really matter what Cantu was _convicted_ of- because this thread and the OP are not about Cantu’s _conviction_. This thread, this debate is completely about Cantu’s **execution** - and the prime cause for\* that\* was Cantu’s ADMITTED cold-blooded murderous gunning down of a Police Officer. So you really think Cantu’s conviction for capital murder wasn’t the direct cause of his execution? It was an uncharged assault brought in during the punsihment phase of his capital murder case that did it, and the fact that he had by that point been found guilty of capital murder had nothing to do with it? If this is about his execution and not his wrongful conviction, exactly how would he have been executed if he hadn’t been convicted of capital murder? > [@DrDeth](#): > > **IF** we are going to execute dudes becuase removing them from Society forever & completely makes Society safer- then executing someone who guns down police officers isn’t an injustice. Let me put this a different way: say Cantu had shot a police officer twenty years ago, and served ten years in prison for it. He’s brought up on capital murder. The fact that he once shot a police officer is 100% not relevant to his guilt or innocence as to the capital murder, and is inadmissable to prove it. If a prosecutor had mentioned it during the guilt-innocence phase, it would be grounds for reversal on appeal. The reason is because we don’t try people for being criminals in general, we try them for the specific crimes that they are charged with. Now, once he’s found guilty of capital punishment, the prosecutor can enter eveidence that he once shot a police officer, but this isn’t the “punishment phase” of a trial for shooting a police officer. In this instance, he’s already punished for that. The sole purpose is determining the character and future dangerousness of the person found guilty of capital murder. _If the capital murder charge is bogus in the first place, it’s a moot point._ ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/330 "2005-12-01T02:24:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This thread, this debate is completely about Cantu’s **execution** - and the prime cause for\* that\* was Cantu’s ADMITTED cold-blooded murderous gunning down of a Police Officer. What??? The crime for which he was convicted and executed for he protested his innocence of. He admitted shooting someone else but that was weeks later. The man he shot had 2 guns, and was not in uniform. He was not on duty and not acting in his offical capacity. It was only after that the man was found to be a cop. To say he shot a cop is stretching the situation somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/331 "2005-12-01T02:32:10Z")
Let me put it yet another way: basically, your argument boils down to “Even if the guilt-innocence phase of his capital murder trial was horribly flawed, the subsequent punishment phase was okay, so everything worked out all right.” Do you not see the flaw in that? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/332 "2005-12-01T05:18:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. But I’ve read the apellate court opinions, which rely upon the trial transcripts. Unfortunately, they are not online, so I can’t link to them; they’re available through Nexis or Westlaw, which are subscription services. And- NOTHING and NO ONE else was admitted as evidence during the actual trial? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/333 "2005-12-01T05:38:05Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > “Juan Moreno, _the only witness who testified at trial as to what happened at the time of the shooting,_ stated that Pedro Gomez did not fire the .38 caliber handgun he was attempting to hand over to Cantu.” You know- IF there was a witness (like the shop teacher) who said that Cantu had been bragging about doing the killing… this statement would still be technically true, as Moreno would still be “the only witness who testified at trial as to what happened _at the time of the shooting_”. Sure, let’s not be stupid, if Cantu had not been convicted of killing Gomez, then it never would have gone to a sentancing hearing. But let’s also look at these facts- if Cantu had not shot the cop down in cold blood- he never would have been arrested for the murder of Gomez in the first place. And, if he hadn’t shot the cop- he also would have “just” gone to prison, not gotten the DP. So _shooting the co_p led to his arrest _and_ his DP. Next, I doubt if Moreno would have felt such remorse and doubt if Cantu had just gone to prison. FINALLY, AND HERE’S THE POINT YOU’RE ALL IGNORING- IF CANTU HADN’T BEEN EXECUTED THIS THREAD WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN STARTED. IT’S NOT ABOUT HIS “FALSE CONVICTION”. READ THE DAMN TITLE- IT’S ABOUT HIS \*\*EXECUTION. \*\* You are all ignoring that fact that if Cantu hadn’t shot the Cop he never would have been executed (or even arrested), thus no thread. Thus, we are NOT debating his “false imprisonment” we’re debating " Executed man found innocent". Read the Title of the thread again. I know, I know, “The death penalty is Evil, so let’s use anything possible to attack it”. But this isn’t helping- it’s obvious that those who claim this case proves anything about the DP are either horribly biased or have their head in the sand. Sorry, try again next time. This just isn’t the case that will change the public’s mind about the DP. No matter how you scream, shout and call me names- as even though I am not in favour of the DP, I have to be the enemy :rolleyes: as I am not in 100% agreement with you! :dubious: ☹ That’s so sad. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/334 "2005-12-01T07:33:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And- NOTHING and NO ONE else was admitted as evidence during the actual trial? 😕 There was evidence regarding venue - the location of the murder placed it within the jurisdiction of the court. There was evidence from the medical examiner to prove that a human being had been killed, and that the cause of death was shooting. None of that evidence had anything to do with Cantu. The only evidence that had to do with Cantu was the testimony of Moreno. NOTHING ELSE. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/335 "2005-12-01T07:35:52Z")
And [d]DrDeth\*\* – why haven’t you answered my question? To repeat: Please summarize the evidence that you contend led to Mr. Cantu’s conviction. The only thing you’ve said in response to this was, “Ask stupid questions much?” So… Please summarize the evidence that you contend led to Mr. Cantu’s conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/336 "2005-12-01T10:41:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You know- IF there was a witness (like the shop teacher) who said that Cantu had been bragging about doing the killing… this statement would still be technically true, as Moreno would still be “the only witness who testified at trial as to what happened _at the time of the shooting_”. Hang on, hang on, let me get this straight. You’re saying that someone else _could_ have heard Cantu bragging about the murder, and that that would have contradicted what the only witness at the scene now says, and therefore despite the fact that there _wasn’t_ a someone else, we can ignore the fact that the only witness to the crime says the dead man didn’t do it? Because I have to say, that might actually be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. Really and truly, it might. I can just see you in front of a jury: “Who are you going to believe, ladies and gentlemen of the jury; a man I have just made up who might have heard something really incriminating, or this person who merely happened to be at the scene of the crime and see the murderers? I think we all know where the real truth lies.” > [@](#): > > Sure, let’s not be stupid, if Cantu had not been convicted of killing Gomez, then it never would have gone to a sentancing hearing. Which should be all you need to know. There can be no more discussion; if Cantu is innocent of _this crime_, then sentencing would never have occurred and is therefore irrelevant. Yes, this thread is about his sentence, but the rest of us are smart enough to go to the root of the issue, namely his actual guilt. _IF AND ONLY IF_ he were guilty, _THEN_ a discussion of whether the DP were correctly applied at sentencing would be relevant. Unfortunately this rather simple implication seems to be entirely eluding you. > [@](#): > > You are all ignoring that fact that if Cantu hadn’t shot the Cop he never would have been executed (or even arrested), thus no thread. No; you’re ignoring the far more glaring, hit-you-in-the-face obvious, nineteen-elephants-in-a-tiny-room overwhelming point that if he DIDN’T DO THE FUCKING CRIME THEN HE SHOULDN’T BE EXECUTED! How is beyond me, but still you persist. It’s truly strange to watch. Faced with a total inability to provide _any_ evidence that this man committed the crime for which he was executed, you are actually arguing that it’s all right that he was killed anyway, first by inventing fictional circumstantial evidence, and then by arguing that the sentencing stage was correctly followed. It’s original, I’ll give you that, but by god it’s making me feel queasy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/337 "2005-12-01T10:45:23Z")
Fighting ignorance since 1973. Sometimes ignorance fights back. Watching **Deth** in this thread is like watching a wolverine try to juggle infants and chainsaws. You know it’s going to only going to come to no good, but you can’t quite look away. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/338 "2005-12-01T13:05:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And [d]DrDeth\*\* – why haven’t you answered my question? > > To repeat: > > Please summarize the evidence that you contend led to Mr. Cantu’s conviction. > > The only thing you’ve said in response to this was, “Ask stupid questions much?” > > So… > > Please summarize the evidence that you contend led to Mr. Cantu’s conviction. I already answered your question and you already replied to my reply. See post #326. No Dead Badger, that’s not what I was saying. :rolleyes: The point is- even if Moreno NOW says Cantu didn’t do it - that doesn’t mean that Cantu didn’t do it, or that Moreno’s testimoney 20 years ago- when his mermory was fresh and less tainted- wasn’t the more accurate one. Besides- Moreneo was under oath and the penalty of perjuty then, he’s not now. How can a 20 year old memory be better that a fresh one? How can a statement isuued to the press be more trusted that one under oath? You are all _assuming_ that Moreno lied then and is telling the truth now- and there is simply no evidence that is true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/339 "2005-12-01T13:16:52Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Hang on, hang on, let me get this straight. You’re saying that someone else _could_ have heard Cantu bragging about the murder, and that that would have contradicted what the only witness at the scene now says, and therefore despite the fact that there _wasn’t_ a someone else, we can ignore the fact that the only witness to the crime says the dead man didn’t do it? > > Faced with a total inability to provide _any_ evidence that this man committed the crime for which he was executed, you are actually arguing that it’s all right that he was killed anyway, first by inventing fictional circumstantial evidence, and then by arguing that the sentencing stage was correctly followed. . The only witness to the crime did state under oath that Cantu did it. Next- \*\*I \*\*don’t have to provide any evidence- the prosecution did that at the trial, and it convinced the jury and years of Appellate Judges. I am simply saying that that evidence appeared to be good according to the Judge, Jury, and Appellate Courts- all of who found it was suffient to convict Cantu. I wasn’t there, I wasn’t on the Jury. I have stated in this thread that the evidence _seemed_ a little sparse to me, but that’s pure speculation and opinion. Nor did I “invent” any circumstantial evidence. I simply pointed out that the wording used in Pravniks post could still leave a lot of other evidence. I have no idea what was presented in Court, I haven’t read the Trial transcripts. Bricker has read a Summation of them, and states that Moreno’s testimony is the only thing that put the finger on Cantu. I have no reason to doubt him, but I can’t speak from my own reading what the evidence was; since as Bricker pointed out, I can’t access his Source, nor can he link to it. So I don’t know what the evidence was. Bricker says he does, and I am not debating that point. The bit about the cop shooting was admitted as evidence in the sentancing hearing _according to Bricker’s newspaper cite._ ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310/340 "2005-12-01T13:59:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor did I “invent” any circumstantial evidence. I simply pointed out that the wording used in Pravniks post could still leave a lot of other evidence. The fact that there _was_ none rather renders your point quite brainfuckingly stupid, of course, but never mind. A fact which despite repeated cites you refuse to acknowledge, preferring in fact go on to flaunt your ignorance: > [@You](#): > > I have no idea what was presented in Court, I haven’t read the Trial transcripts. Do you not think that, when debating the potential innocence of an executed man, having some idea of what was presented in court might be considered almost a pre-requisite for holding forth on the rectitude of his death? Mmm? > [@](#): > > So I don’t know what the evidence was. Bricker says he does, and I am not debating that point. So, let’s be clear; are you admitting that there was no other evidence, or are you refusing to debate the evidence against Cantu? When that is in fact the absolutely core issue? Is your repeated refusal to actually, y’know, find out what happened an attempt to insulate yourself from having to admit that _the only evidence against Cantu has been recanted_? Incidentally, your bizarre position is at odds with pretty much everyone else who was at the trial (bolding mine): > [@Houston Chronicle](#): > > Presented with these statements, as well as information from hundreds of pages of court and police documents gathered by the Chronicle that cast doubt on the case, key players in Cantu’s death — **including the judge, prosecutor, head juror and defense attorney** — now acknowledge that his conviction seems to have been built on omissions and lies. > > “We did the best we could with the information we had, but with a little extra work, a little extra effort, maybe we’d have gotten the right information,” said Miriam Ward, forewoman of the jury that convicted Cantu. “The bottom line is, an innocent person was put to death for it. We all have our finger in that.” > > Sam Millsap Jr., the former Bexar County district attorney who made the decision to charge Cantu with capital murder, says he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on the testimony of an eyewitness who identified Cantu only after police officers showed him Cantu’s photo three separate times. > > “It’s so questionable. There are so many places where it could break down,” said Millsap, now in private practice. “We have a system that permits people to be convicted based on evidence that could be wrong because it’s mistaken or because it’s corrupt.” > [@](#): > > The bit about the cop shooting was admitted as evidence in the sentancing hearing _according to Bricker’s newspaper cite._ I know. We all know. OUR POINT IS THAT THE SENTENCING IS IRRELEVANT **IF THE ORIGINAL VERDICT IS FLAWED**. Please tell me you understand this quite stultifyingly simple point. Your only quasi-valid (read: not _utterly_ dumb) point is that Moreno is not under oath now. However, since it has been established that there is no official avenue available whereby he could re-testify, you are (as has been _repeatedly_ pointed out) setting an impossible standard. Since it is his claim not that he mis-remembered, but that he was [pressured into mis-identifying Cantu](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/texas.execution.ap/), your point about the time elapsed has no real relevance. Incidentally, your post #326 contains absolutely nothing that could be construed as an answer to **Bricker** ’s challenge, merely the sickening sentiment that it’s all right if we killed Cantu for something he didn’t do, because he probably did something else. Well done, sir, well done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/executed-man-found-innocent-just-wonderful/332310.md?page=18)