Good point. Although there are certainly some who don’t care. And these are the high profile cases we hear about, like the PD who slept through his client’s trial. But yeah, I certainly didn’t mean to slam all PDs. Looks like I need to shop around for a more appropriate-sized brush.
I’ll put this to you, however: Supposing you were arrested for murder. Given the choice, would you spend money on the best defense attorney you could find, or would you rather roll the dice with the PD’s office? How much confidence do you put in the PD? Remember, your life is at stake here.
Gus, I’ll link to my video as soon as you link to the one in which you say that, if your wife (or mother, or brother–whoever’s closest to you) is wrongly convicted of murder, you’ll support her execution even if you believe she’s innocent, because after all, the system has to go on. Preferably the video will have you telling your wife/mother/brother exactly how little you value their life.
It should reall be called the “Early Death Penalty”. Everyone gets the death penalty eventually. Of course, people many people know that on a superficial level but many don’t seem to get it. You would think that we are killing what would have been an omnipotent being by the howls of protest these things get.
That isn’t to say that the case in the OP isn’t terrible. We should always strive for the best system we can and try to correct mistakes. However, it doesn’t strike me as any worse than people killed by other institutional mistakes. I really don’t understand why the death penalty draws such passionate opposition. Being stuck in prison for life sucks too and is a kind of death of its own.
Not aimed particularly at you, buns3000, but for anyone who looked at Shodan’s posts, as linked by stpauler in post #30 to this thread, today is their first birthday!
Disclaimer: with my luck, Gus is enough of an idiot to take me at face value on this statement. I don’t have a video camera, so I can’t make this video. But if he’ll post a statement from his wife acknowledging his intention to support her execution in case of her false conviction for murder, I’ll post a statement about how I’ll publicly work against the death penalty for anyone who viciously kills a member of my family.
Hell, I’ll do that for free: I don’t believe in the death penalty, and I don’t want to become party to killing. If anyone ever comes to me to ask me whether I support a particular person’s execution, no matter whom they’ve killed, I’ll say no.
Exceptions granted in the event of a breakdown of the prison system.
Well, I’m not sure where I’d fall on the intelligence spectrum, but if I believed in something, I’d at least state my opinions (especially if there was a chance for more understanding – even possibly on both sides but certainly on mine) no matter what the circumstances, how outnumbered I was or if I was setting myself up to be bashed. I would think my strongly held convictions would be worth it.
Anyway, I can’t add much further to this discussion than what’s already been said, since I’m also an anti-death penalty advocate. All this is just so unbelievable and grotesque. And I weep for the immediate (Cantu, Garza and also Moreno, who seems to have been taken grossly advantage of) people involved, as well as their loved ones.
Shagnasty, I think my IQ is actually lower for having read your reply.
Everyone gets put to death by the legal system in their jurisdiction eventually ? I beg to differ.
If you’re trying to make light of the misapplied death penalty because the killer would die some day anyway, I suggest you apply your reasoning to murder victims as well. “Everyone gets murdered eventually” is equally true (or, to put it in layman’s terms, equally idiotic.)
The state murdered a citizen for no reason. If that’s not cause for protest in your world, what would be ?
There seems to be very few public institutions other than the penal/judicial system that actively work towards ending the lives of those in their power against their will. It’s a bit of a monopoly, really.
Simple. I’m a California taxpayer. When California puts someone to death, they do it in my name, with my money and in a very real way, it’s my finger there on the button that injects poison into someone’s veins. When the state of California puts the wrong person to death, I am complicit in the cold-blooded killing of an innocent man, and I strive - you may even say passionately - to be a better person than that.
My view is more straightforward (and less idiotic) than you make it out to be. People tend to fixate on capital punishment because :gasp, someone gets killed. Other government programs end up with dead people too. War is one obvious example but also see the space program and hundreds of other programs. Statistics tell us that it will happen. The only difference is knowing the who and when. All people die. It is all about benefits and risk management for the entire system.
My main point is, whatever the program, you set it up the best that you can and you work to improve it. Perfection is almost by definition, impossible, so using that as a goal is an avoidance tactic.
What I would like to see is what benefits capital punishment has for society? That is a very problematic analysis. Supporters say that it saves lives in the long-run. This is the only known case of an innocent man being executed in recent years. There must be someone somewhere that was spared untimely death because of the death penalty. Unfortunately, that is difficult to show directly. You also have look at things like the potential murder of prison guards. Has one of them been spared because of the death penalty?
I got in early here, left and came back late. I was going to respond to Gus, but I think others have done it more articulately than I would have.
How’s this for a statement? The one and only time I was called for jury duty, I was summoned for a potential DP case. One of the first questions out of the prosecutor’s mouth was about that, and I replied that I could not ever, under any condition sentence someone to the death penalty. Judge reminded me that falsely portraying my position in order to avoid duty would find me in hot water with him. I had no problem serving on a jury but would not sentence a man to death. The defense attorney got up and said “this juror would be ok with the defense” (or however they phrase that, that was the essence)
Even the prosecutor laughed, but bottom line is I was excused and ended up back in the pool and ended up with a burglary/assault case.
The difference is that government programs don’t usually choose to kill someone when they could just as easily not kill the person, and acheive the same effect. Typically, the gov’t goes to great lengths to prevent death, not encourage it.
I’m not sure what Gus meant by Life Without Parole not being Life Without Parole, but the gov’t can easily incarcerate a person for the remainder of their lives. No citizens need to be endangered whatsoever by the offender, and we didn’t have to kill the guy to do it.
This case is one of the reasons I am against the death penalty. You can’t possibly know everything about the case. You can’t know if evidence was missed, or suppressed. You can’t know if the witnesses are telling the absolute truth - and if they are, memory is undependable. Further, two people can see the saem thing, and yet they SEE different things. You can’t know if tomorrow’s technology will prove you wrong (for instance the use of DNA to exhonerate someone). Most important, you can’t un-do it. I was called to jury duty this past summer, a capital murder case with special circumstances. I was extremely, incredibly relieved when I got “unselected” from the case. It’s that nagging fear - what if we convict and execute, and we were wrong. I would hate to live with that on my conscience.
As for Texas, it isn’t right to condemn the whole state. I lived there for a few years, and they are decent honest people. Many of them are just as opposed to capital punishment as anyone else. But, until it is struck down, it is the law.
I’m not big on prison as revenge, though. For me, the main point of prison is to keep the person from committing the crime again. I’m not clever enough to really stick it to 'em in a way that gives the most suffering for my buck, so I’m not going to try.
You had to be excused. And you were excused for cause; the prosecution did not have to burn a premptory challenge. That’s what a “death-qualified” jury is: the prosecution is entitled to kick off anyone and everyone who doesn’t believe in imposing the death penalty.
This reminds me of the whole West Memphis 3 debate. Aren’t they on death row as well?
GusNSpot, what the fuck? My desire for revenge should supercede common decency and morality? Hey, there are a lot of things I want out of life that I know I can’t have, and that would be immoral to try and get. (Slapping the hell out of an annoying customer, for one).
Okay, we have two with Mom’s that are okay with no DP no matter the rape - torture or brutality of the crime against theirs.
We have one with two close people that did not change her convictions about a total "NO DP ’ stance.
Now, I my 18 year old daughter was murdered and her killer has not served one day in jail due to a corrupt DA. ( lawyer )
One of my sisters was raped twice by the same guy because the judge ( lawyer ) let him out on parole even though he said in court before witnesses that he would get her again if he was let out… It took him a month to catch her alone enough to attacker her. She jumped nude through a glass window to get away. ( She will never be free of this totally )
I have been in the house when a crazy broke in and threatened my Mother and if My Dad had not got him out and had to tell me to shoot ( I was the closest to the guns ) I would have administered the DP then and there.
In none of thses cases did I take the law into my own hands…
So Daniel and others, you have had how many children murdered? Sister raped, you home violently broken into with you and family present?
You all are acting as if all DP cases are iffy and with much possibility of mistake. That just ain’t so.
I have paid my dues to an imperfect system. What have you done but be insulting?
( *:: Oh, and if I am ever stupid enough to go into a strangers house with a dead body on the floor and pick you the murder weapon and stand there with it my hand… well. I need shooting because that is just too stupid to live.:: * )