But how?
By the logic you’ve used earlier, Tylenol isn’t ***meant ***to kill me (it’s meant for other purposes,)…so how could it kill me?
I happen to be retired, but I also happen to be right. Anaesthesia is about the removal of pain, not about sedation. That is why we have ‘local’ and ‘general’ anaesthetics- two ways of avoiding the terror of pain. Part of the procedure may or may not involve sedation (clouding of consciousness) or hypnosis (total loss of consciousness) but that is an adjunct to anaesthesia, as are the muscle relaxants which assist the surgeon.
Anaesthesia is the protection of patients from unnecessry pain and does not mean sedation.
As an example I recently had an ICD fitted to pace my heart. They used a light anaesthetic that involved injection of local anaesthetics into my skin and muscle layer, preceded by an anxiolytic to make it easier for me to bear. When the incision was made just below my chin, the anaesthetist kindly increasd the benzodiazepine so that I lost consciousness fleeting and woke as they were covering the newly sutured wound, thus missing out on a visual memory of the insertion.
That is a light anaesthetic- and anaesthetic being something to avoid the negative effects of pain.
Anaesthesia does not necessarily involve loss of conscious ness or particularly flirting with death.
But do go on using the word incorrectly as you seem to have no interest in relieving your ignorance.
An anaesthetic procedure is designed to keep the person alive.
Tylenol is designed to relieve pain.
Certain parts of the anaesthetic process may cause death if misused, most parts won’t.
Anaesthesia may occur with no loss of consciousness and no risk of death.
You are trying to hide “poisoning” behind the term “anaesthesia” in order to euphemise it.
Now you could equally (and more truthfully) say that judicial killing could be carried out using a Tylenol infusion of some 50-100grams, but that would not be pain relief but poisoning.
The elements of anaesthesia which might kill are drugs like suxamethonium which inhibit the muscles used for breathing, or old fashioned barbiturates now rarely used. It is not their anaesthetic properties that kill any more than it is the analgesic actions of Tylenol.
Try to educate yourself.
Where is Qagdop the Mercotran when you need him?
Show us a single reputable source that states that an anaethetic is not a drug.
Show us single reputable source that says that an anaesthetic can not kill someone.
Just one. :rolleyes:
This is an “interesting” approach to language. However, it appears to be rather idiolectic in its formulation and expression. As such, your persistent accusation of “ignorance” toward those who have disagreed with your interpretation comes close to being little more than personal insults.
Knock it off. You may hold and defend your interpretation of the words and their meaning, but you will stop telling other posters to hold on to their ignorance or that they need to educate themselves.
[ /Moderating ]
Anesthesia Drugs in Common Use according to MedScape include:
Induction agents
Propofol, which causes death in overdose.
Traditional opioid analgesics
Morphine which causes death in overdose.
Meperidine which causes death in overdose.
Hydromorphone which causes death in overdose.
Muscle relaxants
Succinylcholine which causes death in overdose.
Anaesthetics take away the experience of pain
Local Anaesthetics take away the experience of pain by local action maintaining Full Consciousness
Light General Anaesthetics take away the experience of pain by clouding consciousness along with pain suppressants
Full general Anaesthetics take away the experience of pain by total removal of consciousness and agents causing the failure to remember pain suffered.
Anaesthesia is not a near death experience and overdose of most modern anaesthetics does not cause quick or early death.
Surgery requires lack of muscle tone and loss of reflexes and certain drugs (NOT anaesthetics, but very dangerous) cause voluntary and involuntary muscles to stop acting- causing loss of oxygen and possible death. This is not anaesthesia but an adjunct to surgery (as it has nothing to do with the removal of pain and its memory, but merely allows a surgeon to operate on stationary tissue.)
Old fashioned drugs used to cause loss of consciousness such as Barbiturates also caused loss of respiration. So did the similar sleeping draughts used a generation or two ago. These are no longer used.
It is an error to claim that an overdose of modern anaesthetics would cause death quickly or easily.
Killing people requires something that causes irreversible loss of necessary processes such as breathing, cessation of heart beat, or other cause of loss of oxygen to the brain.
Anaesthesia does none of these, save as an adjunct to surgery with muscle relaxants.
People who claim that Anaesthetics in overdose would be a simple way to kill someone are in error and trying to make the process easier than it sounds.
I have described a method above- sedation IM, followed by sedation through small veins IV, followed by intra-costal or abdominal wall injection of toxic material which can be carried out by unskilled practitioners with little need for detailed training. I have explained why this would not be satisfactory for current requirements of vengeance theatre during the process of judicial killing.
I thought the SDMB was about fighting ignorance. Claiming that overdose of anaesthetics would be an easy method of judicial killing is ignorance. They should be called out as such.
So Velocity stated that an anaesthetic could be used to kill people.
And you said that an anaesthetic can not kill someone.
Now you have gone from “anaesthetics can not kill someone” to " “modern anaesthetics can’t kill someone. Well most modern anaesthetics can’t kill someone. Well most modern anaesthetics can’t kill someone in overdose.”
That is one hell of series of glenties.
Instead of just repeatedly asserting this, how about you show us some evidence?
And while you are at it, show us a single reputable source that states that an anaesthetic is not a drug.
And show us a single reputable source that says that an anaesthetic can not kill someone.
Just one.
Because at this stage so much of what you have posted is either nonsense or disingenuous semantics that i don;t think that anybody trusts what you have to say.
I have never said the anaesthetics are not drugs. That was someone’s interpretation in error- check back.
The original suggestion was that a conventional current anaesthetic in overdose would kill easily. Now I discounted older anaesthetics all the way back to chloroform (which can kill easily) because they are not now current anaesthetics.
A botched anaesthetic can kill you as can an overdose of Tylenol or choking on a piece of meat. None of them are suitable methods of judicial killing.
The gas that may be given for light anaesthesia is not a full anaesthetic but either part of induction or just a light anaesthetic- nitrous oxide or gas and air as it is known. Other anaesthetics may be used by inhalation later in the process.
those parts of an operation process that could lead to death (Sux for instance) need to be administered by IV infusion- the same method as used by the current amateur hours correctional facility killers who cannot seem to get the technique right.
General Anaesthesia from Wikipedia:
General anaesthesia has many purposes including:
Analgesia — loss of response to pain,
Amnesia — loss of memory,
Immobility — loss of motor reflexes,
Unconsciousness — loss of consciousness,
Skeletal muscle relaxation.
Toxicity of Common Anaesthetics:
Inhalents:
Halothane
Repeated exposure to halothane in adults was noted in rare cases to result in severe liver injury. This occurred in about one in 10,000 exposures. The resulting syndrome was referred to as halothane hepatitis, and is thought to result from the metabolism of halothane to trifluoroacetic acid via oxidative reactions in the liver. About 20% of inhaled halothane is metabolized by the liver and these products are excreted in the urine. The hepatitis syndrome had a mortality rate of 30% to 70%. Concern for hepatitis resulted in a dramatic reduction in the use of halothane for adults. It was replaced in the 1980s by enflurane and isoflurane. By 2005, the common volatile anesthetics in use were isoflurane, sevoflurane, and desflurane. Since the risk of halothane hepatitis in children was substantially lower than in adults, halothane continued to be used in pediatrics in the 1990s. However, by 2000, sevoflurane had largely replaced the use of halothane in children.
Halothane sensitises the heart to catecholamines, so it is liable to cause cardiac arrhythmias, occasionally fatal, particularly if hypercapnia has been allowed to develop. This seems to be especially problematic in dental anaesthesia.
Like all the potent inhalational anaesthetic agents, it is a potent trigger for malignant hyperthermia. Similarly, it relaxes uterine smooth muscle and this may increase blood loss during delivery or termination of pregnancy.
Intra-venous:
Ketamine:
Ketamine is a drug with multiple applications used in medical procedures with humans and subsequently adopted for veterinary medicine, mainly for starting and maintaining general anesthesia. Other uses include sedation in intensive care, as a pain killer (particularly in emergency medicine and patients with potentially compromised respiration and/or allergies to opiate and barbiturate analgesics), and as treatment of bronchospasm, and as a treatment for complex regional pain syndrome.
Respiratory function is unchanged with the administration of ketamine, which makes it a valuable anaesthetic.[2] Potential complications include agitation.
Pharmacologically, ketamine is classified as an NMDA receptor antagonist, but it also acts at numerous other sites (including opioid receptors and monoamine transporters).[3] Like other drugs in its class, such as tiletamine and phencyclidine (PCP), it is classified as a dissociative agent.[4] The state it induces is defined as “a trancelike cataleptic state characterized by profound analgesia and amnesia, with retention of protective airway reflexes, spontaneous respirations, and cardiopulmonary stability”.[5]
Since it suppresses breathing much less than most other available anaesthetics,[7] ketamine is used in medicine as an anesthetic; however, due to the hallucinations it may cause, it is not typically used as a primary anesthetic, although it is the anaesthetic of choice when reliable ventilation equipment is not available.
Ketamine is frequently used in severely injured people. It is the drug of choice for patients in traumatic shock who are at risk of hypotension.[8] Low blood pressure is harmful in people with severe head injury[9] and ketamine is least likely to cause hypotension, often even able to prevent it.[10][11]
The effect of ketamine on the respiratory and circulatory systems is different from that of other anesthetics. When used at anesthetic doses, it will usually stimulate rather than depress the circulatory system.[12] It is sometimes possible to perform ketamine anesthesia without protective measures to the airways.
Note the lack of major side effects and the lack of warnings about poisoning! This is because modern anaesthetics are chosen for safety with a high therapeutic ratio.
You mean
Ketamine which causes death in overdose.
Similarly with Tylenol- likely to cause death with an overdose.
Neither are acceptable judicial killing drugs for a variety of reasons.
Ketamine in Overdose:
When taken improperly or if too much of the drug is taken, ketamine overdose can occur. Permanent side effects may result from ketamine overdose including coma, psychosis or even death.
A ketamine overdose is the result of taking too much ketamine and having an adverse reaction to the drug. Unfortunately, it’s hard to tell how much is too much because every user is different and will experience different effects from Ketamine. Some can take the drug recreationally without any major problems arising while others may take just a small amount and find themselves suffering from extreme reactions to the drug. The hallucinogenic qualities of Ketamine make this a very unreliable and unpredictable drug which poses serious dangers to the user.
Ketamine overdose may occur with a very small amount of Ketamine, especially if the user is under the influence of other drugs or alcohol. Serious side effects may occur if Ketamine is taken without a prescription or if the drug is mixed with other substances. Often times, ketamine overdose occurs as a result of the user taking the drug unknowingly or mistakenly thinking that they are taking a different type of drug such as MDMA or ecstasy.
When ketamine overdose occurs, the user will suffer adverse reactions to the drug which may include severe sedation, sleepiness, or psychosis. The exact reaction that a user has to the drug will depend on various factors including the amount of the drug that was taken, how the drug was taken, whether other substances are also involved and the individual health of the user prior to taking the drug.
When a user takes an overdose amount of Ketamine, there is a serious risk of respiratory failure which is the leading cause of death with Ketamine overdose. Additional complications may include losing consciousness, having trouble breathing as the airways become clogged, slipping into a deep sleep or coma, nausea and vomiting and hallucinations.
When Ketamine is used, the user will feel sedated and relaxed. In mild to moderate doses, this sedation may be comfortable and inviting but when an excessive dose of Ketamine is taken, especially through injection, the user is at serious risk of suffering long term, damaging consequences. The effects of this drug usually wear off in a few hours but, if overdose occurs, the effects may never fully go away. Overdose that results in a loss of consciousness or a lack of oxygen to the brain can lead to permanent brain damage, paralysis or other serious complications for the user.
Acetaminophen Overdose
Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is a pain medicine. Acetaminophen overdose occurs when someone accidentally or intentionally takes more than the normal or recommended amount of this medication.
Acetaminophen overdose is one of the most common poisonings worldwide. People often think that this medicine is very safe. However, it may be deadly if taken in large doses.
You should not take more than 4000 mg of acetaminophen a day. Taking more, especially 7000 mg or more, can lead to a severe overdose if not treated.
Symptoms
Abdominal pain
Appetite loss
Coma
Convulsions
Diarrhea
Irritability
Jaundice
Nausea
Sweating
Upset stomach
Vomiting
Note: Symptoms may not occur until 12 or more hours after the acetaminophen was swallowed.
Differences: Death from Tylenol overdose is possible at little more than double the therapeutic dose. For ketamine it is usually necessary to take at least ten times the therapeutic dose.
After twelve hours or so of acetaminophen intoxication, death is almost certain.
After twelve hours of Ketamine intoxication, death becomes less likely as concentrations decrease.
Just because a drug is potentially toxic does not make it a potential candidate for judicial killing.
So, you are unable to find a single reference to support your claim that advocating and overdose of anaesthetics would be an easy method of judicial killing is ignorance.
And you are unable to show us a single reputable source that states that an anaesthetic is not a drug.
Ad you are unable to find a single reputable source that says that an anaesthetic can not kill someone.
Despite making those claims repeatedly and loudly and calling anyone who disagreed with you ignorant, you can produce no evidence at all to support them.
I think that pretty much wraps up your credibility on this subject.
Why are anaesthetics not suitable as a judicial killing method (which is the nub of the question)?
They are rarely sufficiently toxic.
They require skilled methods of introduction.
They are uncertain in the likelihood of permanent extinction of life.
Talk of using anaesthetics for such an end is ignorance.
I have outlined above a method that requires little skill beyond basic traing of Correctional Officers- Four point control and restraint, IM tranquillisers, small quantity of IV tranquilliser through readily available vein. Intra-costal or abdominal administration of barbiturates or other readily available drugs.
The problem with the current botched executions is that they require the passing IV of relatively large amounts of fluid into a patent vein- quite a skilled job with challenging clients, and the heavies available to the Correctional services seem unable to master these skills.
That has nothing to do with anaesthesia and everything to do with destruction of life- two very different concepts.
More repetition of the same assertions. Still no actual references.
It’s almost like he doesn’t *have *any evidence for his claims.
:rolleyes:
I never said that anaesthetics were not drugs.
I am merely saying that anaesthetic techniques, contrary to what Velocity was saying, are not suitable to end life. Other methods are, but not anaesthesia.
What you are ignoring is that anaesthesia requires skilled access to the circulatory system- exactly the problem that is causing the current abominations. Added to that is the fact that there are many drugs available that are more toxic and more likely to cause death than any overdose of anaesthetic. An overdose of Tylenol would be more likely to cause death than an overdose of any modern anaesthetic!
I have given the toxicities of the two most common anaesthetics- Ketamine and Halothane and neither are extremely toxic.
What more do you want?
This site states that Ketamine has a wide therapeutic ratio- requires many times the therapeutic dose before death occurs:
http://www.emed.net.nz/wellington/docu/Journals/ProcSed/Andre_Ketamine.pdf
This site lists all current Halothane like drugs and mentions that they all have High Therapeutic ratios.
Just make the condemned read Pjen’s arguments. He’ll be bored to death.
And get educated along the way!
Anaesthesia is to do with coping with pain. Anaesthetics are not a good choice to kill people. Even Tylenol is better!