# Exercise Advice to build muscle: the squat **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082 "2018-03-05T21:39:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/1 "2018-03-05T21:39:46Z")
Apologies if this has been asked before, but for muscle building/lean body mass building purposes, is there any difference between squats done on a machine vs done with a rack? I have been making great gains on the 5x5 workout. It seems well suited for me to what I believe stimulates muscle growth, keeps my time in the gym manageable, and enough progression to keep me interested. However, I’m starting to plateau. With a traditional rack, I can barely manage 295 lbs for 4 sets (I can do the 5th set, but after 5 mins rest and it’s complete garbage in form). Also, I have a shoulder injury from football, and I can barely keep my arm in the position needed to hold the barbell. However, using this [machine](http://www.discountonlinefitness.com/precor-icarian-super-squat.html), I can do 365 easily and I can continue my progress without hurting my shoulder. If I have my back to the machine, it feels harder than if I face it, though, facing it allows me to do a deeper squat. Or, should I look to some other machine/exercise? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/2 "2018-03-05T21:50:38Z")
Not for nothin’, but a good friend of mine used to compete in weight lifting (clean and jerk) in the 69kg body weight class. He warned people away from using that specific machine. He said it’s excellent at one thing and one thing only… compressing and permanently injuring your spine. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/3 "2018-03-05T23:16:10Z")
I am not familiar with that machine or how it works, but the [Smith machine](https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/smith-machine-squat) is widely considered terrible because of how it forces your body to move in an unnatural way (lifting the load straight up rather than adjusting for natural change in curvature as you move) and doesn’t encourage the development of lateral stability. Spinal injuries are no joke, and you really want to develop the necessary core strength, and particularly lateral capability, to avoid injury. For the o.p., if you find that you can’t do an exercise with good form it indicates a deficiency that needs to be corrected. Trying to increase weight or workload is inevitably going to result in injury which is counterproductive to gains or fitness. Shoulder injuries in particular need to be corrected so that you do not develop poor form to compensate for injury, resulting in compounding the damage or straining something else in the process. Kettlebells are particularly good for prehab/rehab of shoulder injuries, and Jeff Martone’s [_Kettlebell Rx: The Complete Guide for Athletes and Coaches_](https://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Rx-Complete-Athletes-Coaches/dp/1936608995) is the most comprehensive kettlebell guide I’ve found that specifically focused on rehabilitation of injuries or mobility deficiencies. Steel clubs can also be used but you’ll find find more information and tutorials for kettlebells. I hope that proves of some use to you. Stay safe and avoid injury. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/4 "2018-03-07T04:01:22Z")
So how is this bad for one’s spine? If anything, it feels like the weight is more even distributed across my shoulders and definitely less painful than the bar. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/5 "2018-03-07T04:15:55Z")
^ I wouldn’t sweat claims that it’s bad for your spine just because someone that competed in weightlifting said it’s only good for that. That’s a hack squat machine. It’s an excellent quad builder. You can get a little more tension on the hamstrings by positioning your feet more forward on the plate, but like all squats, it’s primarily a quad builder. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/6 "2018-03-07T07:13:20Z")
You can’t help but plateau at some point. I made a New Year’s resolution in 2007 to start working out 3x per week and I’ve been at it ever since. I’m still increasing the weight I can lift, but it’s a SLOW process and I usually have to pack on some weight to do so. So yeah, you can go use your pansy machine and lift more weight, but if you’re wanting to do it right just keep squatting. If you hit a plateau, start doing more reps with less weight and build that weight up and then switch back to low reps and big weight after several months. After all this time I realize it’s not worth it to dissect every part of your workout, just keep pushing yourself. That’s the only important thing to do in the gym. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/7 "2018-03-07T15:21:38Z")
I’ve never used the machine for squats, but I would think that using your own body to squat, with or without weights, is more “natural.” The machine can help with the lifting, but using your own body can help you with balance and distributing the weight. If you can do more weight with the machine than without I would submit the machine is “helping” you. Try building up without it. ---
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/8 "2018-03-07T17:07:04Z")
> [@mazinger\_z](#): > > So how is this bad for one’s spine? If anything, it feels like the weight is more even distributed across my shoulders and definitely less painful than the bar. Never used that machine, but from looking at it, I can take a guess. Because the motion (pushing up) is with a solid structure with a pivot, there’s less “need” to keep your core tight. As you get tired with more weight, you focus on merely “pushing” with your legs, and not keeping your torso tight to transfer that to the pads. Going lax with your torso, yet continuing to complete the exercise is what will lead to messing up your spine. Compare this to a normal barbell squat. Half the work is what your torso needs to do to keep you balanced as you squat and as you push up. As noted with a Smith machine, this requires minor adjustments (forward and backward), and that’s all your core/torso handling those adjustments. This is what makes squatting a more “full body” exercise (as compared to, say, a leg press). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/9 "2018-03-07T17:59:33Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > Never used that machine, but from looking at it, I can take a guess. > Because the motion (pushing up) is with a solid structure with a pivot, there’s less “need” to keep your core tight. As you get tired with more weight, you focus on merely “pushing” with your legs, and not keeping your torso tight to transfer that to the pads. Going lax with your torso, yet continuing to complete the exercise is what will lead to messing up your spine. That’s pretty far-fetched. I’ve never experienced letting my upper body change position, such as starting to slump forward, when performing hack squats. I can’t imagine this happening to anyone, even when going until failure. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/10 "2018-03-07T18:20:38Z")
[ol] [/ol] > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > That’s pretty far-fetched. I’ve never experienced letting my upper body change position, such as starting to slump forward, when performing hack squats. I can’t imagine this happening to anyone, even when going until failure. It’s not that you should “slump forward” or make gross adjustments to body position, but making the fine adjustments in the abdominis muscles, and particularly the obliques, that are not worked extensively in using a weigth stabilizing machine helps to protect from injury and develop strength and lifting technique that is useful outside of the gym. The people who boast about how much they can lift using a Smith machine versus free-weights are missing the point that in terms of functional anatomy, the body’s ability to stabilize a lifting load is as important to effective capability (and definitely in preventing injury) as absolutely weight that can be lifted. If your point is just to maximize your numbers, and you don’t care about the almost inevitable potential for chronic injury, by all means rely upon a stabilizing machine to assist in the lift. If you actually want functional strength for real world use or to maintain good fitness into middle and late age, learn to do a proper lift with free weights and address deficiencies in shoulders or other areas with prehabilitation and rehabilitation to prevent further injury from poor lifting technique. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/11 "2018-03-07T18:43:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > [ol] > [/ol]It’s not that you “slump forward” or make gross adjustments to body position, but the fine adjustments in the abdominis muscles, and particularly the obliques, that are not worked extensively in using a weigth stabilizing machine. I get that. I’m responding to a claim regarding a specific machine “compressing and permanently injuring your spine.” > [@](#): > > If your point is just to maximize your numbers, and you don’t care about the almost inevitable potential for chronic injury, by all means rely upon a stabilizing machine to assist in the lift. I think that’s far-fetched also. I don’t believe there’s any credible evidence that using a hack squat machine has the danger you’re implying. Both free weight and machine assisted exercises have their place. Even those just employing machines aren’t almost certainly risking chronic injury. For many, machines have a greater place. While it’s mostly a myth that it’s bad for the knees to go over the toe line when performing exercises such as squats, for many due to the build of their frame or conditions such as chondromalacia patella, machines that allow you to step forward and squat in this “unnatural” position allow one to perform squatting exercises they would not be able to do otherwise. > [@](#): > > If you actually want functional strength for real world use or to maintain good fitness into middle and late age, learn to do a proper lift with free weights and address deficiencies in shoulders or other areas with prehabilitation and rehabilitation to prevent further injury from poor lifting technique. What poor lifting technique? Regarding functional strength, I have a couple links for you to check out below. The second being more updated and lengthy (a video included) than the first. Not linking these as debate points or to call you out, but because you may find interest in them. I’m not really interested in getting into a lengthy debate about this. Ignore the hoaky website name. Brad Schoenfled is a real deal fitness expert. [http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/is-functional-training-really-functional/](http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/is-functional-training-really-functional/) [http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/debunking-the-myth-of-functional-exercises/](http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/debunking-the-myth-of-functional-exercises/) ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/12 "2018-03-07T18:53:42Z")
The way most machines are designed, the weight you lift on the machine does not equal the weight you can do standalone. The machine may support part of the weight, or employ cams and levers that reduce the effort. You typically will need to have more weight on a machine to equal the same effort you do standalone. The 365 you do on the machine doesn’t mean you can do 365 as a squat. If you are training to do regular squats or for an athletic purpose (e.g. football) , then the machines should just be used sparingly for specific purposes. But if you’re training to build muscles for aesthetic reasons, then the machines can work for that. But if you use machines, you may need to do more training on the support muscles since they won’t be getting as much of a workout. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/13 "2018-03-07T19:01:10Z")
more from Brad Schoenfeld: > [@](#): > > “The statement that machines are useless is just a silly comment. It’s inane and lacks appreciation for the complexity of the adaptive responses to exercise,” Brad Schoenfeld, assistant professor of exercise science at Lehman College in New York and author of The M.A.X. Muscle Plan, told me. > > Some are anti-machine because they question the functional aspect. > > “Machines can promote functional improvements, and this has been displayed over and over in multiple studies,” Schoenfeld said. One example he gave was of a group of 90-year-olds who did three days a week of the often maligned leg extension. But the study revealed major strength increases, and 2 of the 10 participants ended up being able to walk without their canes as a result of this one machine exercise. How is that not functional? > **[AskMen - Become a Better Man](https://www.askmen.com/)** > > AskMen is the No. 1 site to help men improve their lives—from discovering new products and trends to getting advice on dating, fitness, grooming and more. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/14 "2018-03-07T19:03:16Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > The machine may support part of the weight, or employ cams and levers that reduce the effort. Or increase the effort (same link as above): > [@](#): > > “Free weights are enhanced gravity, and gravity has a single force vector, which is vertical, up and down,” he said. “Machines work on a cam system so do not have a single force vector and keep a more consistent resistance through the range of motion.” At the top range of a dumbbell biceps curl you have minimal resistance because you’re moving the weight almost parallel to gravity, but with a machine, the resistance is consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/15 "2018-03-07T19:14:22Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What poor lifting technique? Regarding functional strength, I have a couple links for you to check out below. The second being more updated and lengthy (a video included) than the first. Not linking these as debate points or to call you out, but because you may find interest in them. I’m not really interested in getting into a lengthy debate about this. Ignore the hoaky website name. Brad Schoenfled is a real deal fitness expert. > > [» Is Functional Training Really Functional?](http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/is-functional-training-really-functional/) > > [» Debunking the Myth of Functional Exercises](http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/debunking-the-myth-of-functional-exercises/) You want to cite from a website called “Look Great Naked” as the canonical source for fitness information, and have the uncontested last word in the discussion. Got it. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/16 "2018-03-07T19:25:10Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You want to cite from a website called “Look Great Naked” as the canonical source for fitness information, and have the uncontested last word in the discussion. Got it. > > Stranger Brad Schoenfeld probably knows a thousand times as much about fitness as you do, Dr. Google. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/17 "2018-03-07T19:43:23Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Brad Schoenfeld probably knows a thousand times as much about fitness as you do, Dr. Google. _puts down protein shake_ Oh. Burn. _picks up protein shake_ Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/18 "2018-03-07T22:46:52Z")
Have you ever tried [trap bar deadlifts](https://barbend.com/trap-bar-deadlift/)? It’s called a deadlift, but really works a lot of the same muscles as a squat and feels more like a squat. As with all exercises, using proper form is very important. As far as the barbell hurting your shoulders goes, have you tried using a pad? There’s not much else that can be done, in my experience. 300lbs on a barbell is a lot of weight on a relatively small area of your body. Even with proper form and bar placement, a little bruising and discomfort is just part of it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/19 "2018-03-07T22:55:54Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > Have you ever tried [trap bar deadlifts](https://barbend.com/trap-bar-deadlift/)? It’s called a deadlift, but really works a lot of the same muscles as a squat and feels more like a squat. As with all exercises, using proper form is very important. > > As far as the barbell hurting your shoulders goes, have you tried using a pad? There’s not much else that can be done, in my experience. 300lbs on a barbell is a lot of weight on a relatively small area of your body. Even with proper form and bar placement, a little bruising and discomfort is just part of it. There’s also [this style bar.](https://garagegymlab.com/5-safety-squat-bar-benefits/) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082/20 "2018-03-07T23:49:43Z")
As stranger noted all those important stabilizer muscles are potentially shortchanged with the machine. Check out Mark Rippetoe’s YouTube tutorials and or his book. Lots of useful information. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercise-advice-to-build-muscle-the-squat/810082.md?page=2)