# Exercises in magical thinking are a waste of mental effort **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 4, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832 "2024-04-04T19:50:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/21 "2024-04-05T02:36:58Z")
Jesus. Don’t yuck peoples yum. If you don’t like something, that’s fine. Just move on and let people like what they like. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/22 "2024-04-05T02:45:44Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > IRL counterfactuals, like “What if Hitler didn’t declare war on America” or “What if Hannibal marched on Rome after Cannea?” are an interesting way to think about history IMO. > > But fictional counterfactuals are kinda silly. That’s one perspective. But by another point of view, it’s IRL counterfactuals that are the silly ones. Reality is whatever it is; what happened is what happened. But in fiction, the author could have made different choices and made those what-ifs happen within the story. They could even write two or more completely different versions of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/23 "2024-04-05T02:55:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My Moon example was chosen deliberately because insofar as we know there is no way for matter to blink out of existence. Only magic can do that. I thought something like that might have been your point. I mentioned speculative fiction so as to include knowledge that we don’t currently have but that might one day be discovered, if it is presented in some way as to be, well, believably possible (it’s a fine line from there to outright fantasy, I realize). Far across that fine line is the very pseudo-scientific crap that one finds in “super hero” movies (and their source materials). > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The phrase “magical thinking” has a technical meaning, or maybe more than one, but I don’t think that’s the sense in which you’re using the phrase? You are right about that, although I would say that the technical definition is subsumed in the wider way in which I am using the term. I refer back to this: “something that is based on the existence of magical processes or abilities.” “Wishing will make it so” is a subset of that, although a relatively small part of popular culture story-telling at present. > [@griffin1977](#): > > It seems more to do with _fictional_ what-ifs than fantasy or magical things. If the “It” in that sentence refers to what I am complaining about, then I can only say that is not what I wrote. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Jesus. Don’t yuck peoples yum. If you don’t like something, that’s fine. Just move on and let people like what they like. I don’t come into your Harry Potter thread (if you had one) and say “what a load of rubbish.” It would be nice if you gave this thread the same courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/24 "2024-04-05T03:04:54Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I thought something like that might have been your point. I mentioned speculative fiction so as to include knowledge that we don’t currently have but that might one day be discovered, if it is presented in some way as to be, well, believably possible (it’s a fine line from there to outright fantasy, I realize). Far across that fine line is the very pseudo-scientific crap that one finds in “super hero” movies (and their source materials). Agree completely with all of this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/25 "2024-04-05T03:11:50Z")
Premise: imagination is a fundamental component of intelligence. Evidence: to make something new, you need to be able to imagine it first (or at least to imagine a new use for what you’ve accidentally created), as said above. What-ifs and counterfactuals are exercises in the imagination, building the skill and keeping it limber with regular use. It’s also a pretty good way to ascertain what was significant and what was peripheral about reality: What if X had happened differently? Well, nothing: then X didn’t matter. Everything changes! Then X was important. It’s also just a form of play, something humans do. Not everything has to be in service of an immediate practical goal. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/26 "2024-04-05T03:12:25Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > If the “It” in that sentence refers to what I am complaining about, then I can only say that is not what I wrote. My point is that “What if Gandalf decided to get the eagles to take Frodo and the ring to mount doom at the start of LoTR” is no more or less silly than “What if Butch from Pulp Fiction hadn’t gone back for the watch”. It’s nothing to do with magic or fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/27 "2024-04-05T03:40:34Z")
Indeed, the best IRL counterfactuals require knowledge, and the alternative pathways should have a high probability of occuring (close to, or more than 50% probability). That’s why _all_ historical events don’t make good alt-hist candidates (i.e. not enough knowledge, low probability, not something likely to result in something significant, etc.). _What if JFK was wearing a titanium hat on November 22, 1963?_, for example, would not make an interesting “what if.” But, that still leaves enough significant, high probability historical pivital points to play around with and seriously analyze. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/28 "2024-04-05T05:23:46Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I don’t ’t come into your Harry Potter thread (if you had one) and say “what a load of rubbish.” It would be nice if you gave this thread the same courtesy. What is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/29 "2024-04-05T05:55:02Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > We get a lot of “what if” threads here about what would happen if some fantasy/religious/magical thing had happened a different way. […] I find it painful to try to exercise my logic muscles in the pursuit of magical thinking. I personally enjoy playing religious _what if_. I also don’t consider myself religious. And I can tell you exactly why I enjoy it. 1. I enjoy thinking about abstract problems. I refer to the act of critical thinking itself, not necessarily as a means to some other end. 2. There is (or can be) a measure of certainty in theology due to its non-reliance on empirical evidence. 3. I have full control over the story, premises, authorities, etc. that I decide to entertain. One that I like to assume is consistency. Props to any author(s) who manage to keep their story mostly consistent. 4. I’m not caught up in the debate - maybe I have some bias in how I would prefer a scenario or question to resolve itself, but my hair isn’t turning grey from stress. 5. The way I grew up with religion, I was encouraged to be critical at every turn. I have happy memories from my childhood that involve asking what if. People who have had a bad experience with religion likely have other feelings when discussing religion, obviously. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/30 "2024-04-05T11:39:00Z")
Its been a while since I saw such a pure form of “these kids are having too much fun!” around here. Daydreaming, hypotheticals, creating fiction, and all such related activities are incredibly healthy processes, and **incredibly** important for adults, who often forgo such things (and play in general) because somebody has convinced them it’s a childish waste of time. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I don’t come into your Harry Potter thread (if you had one) and say “what a load of rubbish.” No, you instead posted this thread to let **the entire board** know that every single one of those posts in every single one of those threads is a load of rubbish. I believe this is a “lighten up, Francis” situation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/31 "2024-04-05T11:43:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > No, you instead posted this thread to let **the entire board** know that every single one of those posts in every single one of those threads is a load of rubbish. 🤨 > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > **I don’t grudge the folks who like that sort of thing** , but I find it painful to try to exercise my logic muscles in the pursuit of magical thinking. > > **I’m not asking for anything to change here**. But I do wonder from time to time if other people also find all that stuff, well, silly. (my bolding) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/32 "2024-04-05T11:45:43Z")
Anyway, OP, count me as one who likes that kind of thing because it’s interesting to me to be creative, and this is one way to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/33 "2024-04-05T11:59:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > (my bolding) Making a point of telling everyone that you’re rolling your eyes every time they do a thing you find to be a pointless waste of time is kind of the definition of begrudging folks their fun. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/34 "2024-04-05T12:10:11Z")
Moderating: Please stop the thread shit as to whether this thread should exist > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > > > I don’t ’t come into your Harry Potter thread (if you had one) and say “what a load of rubbish.” It would be nice if you gave this thread the same courtesy. > > What is wrong with you? Is just rude. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > > > I don’t come into your Harry Potter thread (if you had one) and say “what a load of rubbish.” > > No, you instead posted this thread to let **the entire board** know that every single one of those posts in every single one of those threads is a load of rubbish. > > I believe this is a “lighten up, Francis” situation And this is also inappropriate. As are the next couple of posts Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/37 "2024-04-05T12:33:00Z")
“If Beethoven had been killed in an airplane crash at twenty-two, the history of music would have been very different. As would the history of aviation.” — Tom Stoppard ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/38 "2024-04-05T12:33:41Z")
I enjoy fantasy and play role-playing games so far be it from me to cast aspersions on someone’s creative writing/thinking exercise, be it about Hitler’s superweapon programs or Star Trek alien military tactics. Maybe it’s a little silly but a lot of fun things are a bit silly which is part of what makes them fun. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/39 "2024-04-05T13:12:55Z")
This an example. If there’s no Americas is there no super continent Pangea? IMO nothing on the planet would look remotely similar. And this is in factual questions! > [@Western route to Asia if no Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156): > > If the Americas did not exist when would Columbus’s idea of a western route from Europe to Asia have been feasible? You may assume all Pacific islands would still exist. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/40 "2024-04-05T14:49:27Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > We get a lot of “what if” threads here about what would happen if some fantasy/religious/magical thing had happened a different way. I always roll my eyes, say to myself “none of that stuff actually happened anyway” and move on. I think you have to distinguish between questioner/commenters who believe the stuff actually happened and who do not. Here, the majority may concider “What if Adam hadn’t bit the apple?” to be a question akin to “What if Luke Skywalker was convinced to join Darth Vader in ESB?” but there are a large number of places where it would be considered a serious question about a genuine historical event and lead to serious debate that is thought to have a plausible answer. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/41 "2024-04-05T15:08:03Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > “What if Hamlet had an AK-47?” He’d be [played by Schwarzenegger](https://youtu.be/8Z9Ismh1elM?t=40). ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832/42 "2024-04-05T17:28:48Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Some writers of fantasy fiction are more scrupulous about their world-building than others. In particular, some use what are known as “hard magic systems,” where magic in their world works according to specifically defined rules and limitations, which are explained to the reader/audience > > [Sanderson's First Law | Brandon Sanderson](https://www.brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/) Jim Butcher writes the same way. Magic in the Dresdenverse has rules and limits. For example, the wizard Harry Dresden has a spell that projects a shield of energy in front of him, that protects him against kinetic forces like gunfire. However, when he uses it to block a flamethrower, his hand gets badly burned; because the shield deflects the _flame_, but not the _heat_. Which means, IMO, that counterfactuals from the Dresdenverse aren’t just pointless exercises in arbitrary choices; since magic in that legendarium is a coherent and structured system - an alternate physics, if you like - it is possible to debate what-ifs in a reasonable manner. > [@Mangetout](#): > > > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > > > “What if Hamlet had an AK-47?” is not such a question. As a literature professor, I’d encourage the first question (even if I’m personally a bit bored with it), but not the second one > > OK, but what if _Macbeth_ had one? Then the quote would have been, “Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood…and bone shards…and pulverized muscle…and cerebrospinal fluid… in him?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercises-in-magical-thinking-are-a-waste-of-mental-effort/999832.md?page=3)