# Exercising their rights or crazier than a sh\*thouse rat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637 "2003-07-15T13:24:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/1 "2003-07-15T13:24:49Z")
Or both? It may be odd but it’s not illegal. > [@](#): > > Costing an Arm and a Leg > The victims of a growing mental disorder are obsessed with amputation. > By Carl Elliott > > Baz remembers first seeing an amputee when he was a 4-year old boy in Liverpool. By the time he was 7 he had begun to think, “This is the way I should be.” It was not until Baz was in his 50s, however, that he actually had his leg amputated. Baz froze his leg in dry ice until it was irreversibly damaged, then persuaded a surgeon to complete the job. When he awoke from the anesthetic and his left leg was gone, he says, “All my torment had disappeared.” \*Full text at [http://slate.msn.com/id/2085402/](http://slate.msn.com/id/2085402/) \* ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/2 "2003-07-15T13:43:08Z")
Does it have to be one or the other? Can’t they be crazy _and_ exercising their rights? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/3 "2003-07-15T13:52:49Z")
Yes, and I said that in the OP: > [@](#): > > Or both? It may be odd but it’s not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/4 "2003-07-15T13:53:46Z")
Exercising their right _to be_ such an unsanitary rodent, such as it is. There is a fine line to be drawn between expressing/asserting one’s uniqueness or identity, and undergoing procedures which harm, disfigure or otherwise impair one’s ability to function in everyday life. (I am also minded of that guy who spends a fortune on plastic surgery to look as “cat-like” as possible). The term “mental disorder” is somewhat loaded (how about transsexuals? And, doubtless, past generations would apply it to anyone with a faceful of piercings today!). I believe this is something which the medical establishment must simply come to a gradual consensus about, considering all possible data, psychiatric evalutions an symptoms of mental distress/depression. Of course, it should also be remembered that the surgeons themselves are perfectly entitled to _refuse_ such unnecessary operations. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/5 "2003-07-15T14:00:54Z")
I’ll have to go with c) all of the above. And of course, I want to know who is paying for these silly bastards to have this done. If it is being paid for by taxpayer funds, then I have a real problem with it. I also have issues with people incapacitating themselves so that they are unable to contribute to society, especially since at least some of these folks will have dependents. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/6 "2003-07-15T14:16:34Z")
Body modification. Split tongues and nose piercings. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/7 "2003-07-15T14:48:30Z")
He could at least have donated his legs to someone who needed them instead of destroying them. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/8 "2003-07-15T15:04:36Z")
Your point, SimonX? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/9 "2003-07-15T15:34:22Z")
Shithouse rats fought long and hard for their rights. Perhaps you recall the Squeak and Scatter Rebellion of 1884? Show some respect. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/10 "2003-07-15T15:57:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > The term “mental disorder” is somewhat loaded (how about transsexuals? And, doubtless, past generations would apply it to anyone with a faceful of piercings today!). I believe this is something which the medical establishment must simply come to a gradual consensus about, considering all possible data, psychiatric evalutions an symptoms of mental distress/depression. Indeed, my understanding is that transexuals seeking gender-reassignment surgery are required to undergo a long series of psychological evaluations and counseling to determine (among other things) whether their desire stems from a metal disorder. I don’t know how many candidates are weeded out through that process, but I assume it’s a bunch. Medically speaking, there is no automatic “right” to gener-reassignment surgery just because the patient wants it, and the same thing would certainly apply to elective amputation. I cannot imagine the circumstances in which a doctor or psychiatrist would conclude that a desire to amputate one’s own limbs would be anything other than the result of a mental disorder, but you never know what’s buried in the heads (and limbs) of human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/11 "2003-07-15T16:05:05Z")
It’s old hat, the book [Apocalypse Culture](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0922915059/ref=lib_dp_TC01/104-1752414-1515969?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=6#reader-link), published in 1987 has a number of articles about self amputation. It a very, uh, interesting read. IIRC, there is an article about a performance artist who either wanted to or in fact did create a machine to randomly amputate bits of his body on stage. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/12 "2003-07-15T17:26:19Z")
Even if there is a mental disorder, there are plenty of disorders that cannot be cured with any amount of drugs or any amount of therapy. So either you condemn somebody to live with a body they hate (which certainly leads to a messed up life and often leads to them killing themselves) or you let them make fairly safe alterations. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/13 "2003-07-15T17:37:13Z")
See [this thread on apotemnophilia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51200). There are others; a search on “apotemnophilia” should turn up most of them. (It’s interesting how transsexualism **always** comes up whenever apotemnophilia gets mentioned…) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/14 "2003-07-15T18:52:48Z")
Kelly, although I would not necessarily make the comparison myself, I can see why some people might. There is little in common between gender reassignment and crippling oneself on purpose. (Warning! Fake male chauvinist rimshot ahead!) Unless, of course, one sees becoming a woman as a form of crippling oneself. (Whew! That’s out of my system! Hope nobody took me seriously, this being GD and all.) Dissonance, I think I’ve found a present for my wife in that book. Right up her alley. :eek: Sven, I think you make a good point. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/15 "2003-07-15T19:04:56Z")
Thanks for the link, Kelly. It’s nice to see that, while I’m not surprised there was at least one thread about this that I’ve forgotten about, at least I didn’t post to it. That WOULD be embarassing. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/16 "2003-07-15T19:56:07Z")
minty > [@](#): > > I don’t know how many candidates are weeded out through that process, but I assume it’s a bunch. I’m not so sure that’s the case per this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=69669). A couple quotes from the thread: From **Sterra** > [@](#): > > Really I think the most common test is the “real life test”. Since it is thought that any transgendered person will want so badly to be the other sex they simply impose a year living life as the opposite sex before they can get SRS. There are brain differences but no one knows enough to say “hey you have this, your transgendered” From **KellyM** > [@](#): > > There is no “magic test” they can give you to tell you if you’re transgendered. Ultimately, the test is whether you’re determined enough to convince the therapist. I’d be definitely interested in any study which attempts to measure the percentage of people denied SRS due to psychological reasons. Grim ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/17 "2003-07-15T20:10:23Z")
This just seems to be _extreme_ body modification. They certainly seem to have the right. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/18 "2003-07-15T22:51:52Z")
… DORRANCE #7 STAINLESS STEEL HOOKS! ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/19 "2003-07-15T23:00:31Z")
As far as I can tell, although someone born a man may (with or without surgery) be wearing high heels at work, I will never have to carry a sex-change out of a burning building. Someone deliberately makes his or her or intermediate stage self blind, deaf, or crippled, they are opting out of being able to pull their weight in a variety of situations. Would it be discrimination if I refused to hire a man who had deliberately amputated his leg as a letter carrier? What if I felt it was “normal” and “right for me” to be out of my mind on rhino tranquilizers and carrying automatic weapons? Is that okay? There is clearly a point where the difference between elective surgery becomes a matter of kind, not quantity. Do something that renders you unable to manage the basic biped mammal mobility crosses the line. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637/20 "2003-07-16T01:02:48Z")
I think it’s their right so long as these self-amputees receive _no public aid whatsoever_\*, neither for the surgical process itself nor for the fact that they may be unable to perform their jobs after mutilating themselves, or that they may be unable to find a new job. And since the bleeding hearts will cry “won’t somebody _please_ think of the children!”, and throw these nuts money anyways if they have kids, then I suppose we’d have to prevent them from doing this if they had dependants (as another poster suggested.) We clearly have the right to become bums and wander the countryside, so I don’t think the fact that they lose their ability to “contribute to society” (whatever that means) should prevent it, as long as they realize they deserve no assistance from the public. As the Nat’l Amputee Rights Action League (NARAL) might say if such a group existed, “my body my choice!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exercising-their-rights-or-crazier-than-a-sh-thouse-rat/188637.md?page=2)