# Exit before Brexit \[CNN Article on foreigners leaving UK\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549 "2016-10-03T04:20:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/101 "2016-10-09T21:53:01Z")
Once Article 50 is “Invoked” (however that is done) and 2 years have passed, I take it, come Hell or High Water, “Brexit”, whatever it turns out to look like, will be, by definition Complete. In definition, if not entirely in action. What if, as the UK did in the 1960’s, decide that the ECC is, after all, really pretty, and wants to join? For those not around at the time: France used its EEC vote to block the UK’s admission. And, this time, the Germans may well also hold a grudge. For the Leave: has the idea of re-joining the EU (or at least parts of it) been considered? I understand that there was, in some quarters, the belief that access to “Common Market” (free flow of goods and services) would be easily obtained. Ignoring that idea, has the concept of “wanting back in” been considered, or is it believed to never again be attractive? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/102 "2016-10-09T22:17:17Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Once Article 50 is “Invoked” (however that is done) and 2 years have passed, I take it, come Hell or High Water, “Brexit”, whatever it turns out to look like, will be, by definition Complete. In definition, if not entirely in action. > > What if, as the UK did in the 1960’s, decide that the ECC is, after all, really pretty, and wants to join? > > For those not around at the time: France used its EEC vote to block the UK’s admission. > And, this time, the Germans may well also hold a grudge. > For the Leave: has the idea of re-joining the EU (or at least parts of it) been considered? > I understand that there was, in some quarters, the belief that access to “Common Market” (free flow of goods and services) would be easily obtained. > Ignoring that idea, has the concept of “wanting back in” been considered, or is it believed to never again be attractive? Others may disagree but the idea of “wanting back in” has not really been considered. It’s far too early for that. There was some early talk of trying to reverse the decision with a 2nd referendum, or ignoring the referendum altogether. Far greater consideration has been given to either a hard Brexit or soft Brexit. Generally Brexiteers want a hard Brexit, Remainers want a soft Brexit, but this is not a hard and fast rule. This is not aimed at you but pointing out the relative intransigence of our “European partners” will not endear the EU to a single Brexit supporter. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/103 "2016-10-10T14:10:39Z")
In respect of the “what happens next” question, this [letter](https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/785452655451762688)by Stephen Philips MP (Tory, voted Leave) makes a good case, I think: > [@Stephen Philips MP](#): > > The result of the recent referendum, whilst clear in indicating that the majority of those who exercised their vote wished the United Kingdom to leave the EU, was not a referendum as to the terms on which the relationship between this country and its largest trading partner should in future be governed. The referendum gives the government no authority or mandate to adopt a negotiating position without reference to the House and the wishes of the British people expressed through their democratically elected representatives. > > The government nonetheless appear intent not only upon exercising an alleged prerogative power without reference to Parliament (in the form of rights conferred by article 50 of TFEU) but in embarking upon a negotiation, and presumably concluding that negotiation, without any regard to the House. That is self-evidently fundamentally undemocratic, unconstitutional and cuts across the rights and privileges of the legislature not only properly to hold the government to account but to inform and if necessary dictate the course that it is proposed to take. > > It is apparent from various announcement made and speeches given at the Conservative Party Conference, which should perhaps have more properly have been made to Parliament, that the government have no intention of consulting the House with regard to the most important issue currently facing the United Kingdom. This is simply not an acceptable way for the Executive so proceed. (Any typos are mine) He goes on to make the point that those who voted Leave did so largely because they wanted to restore the sovereignty of Parliament - for the government to attempt to ignore that sovereignty is making a mockery of people’s votes. I think there’s a strong point here. The vote was to Leave, but questions about Hard or Soft Brexit, membership of the single market, EEA vs WTO tariffs, freedom of movement etc. (and etc. and etc.) were not asked and therefore not answered. It would be painful to have another referendum on Hard or Soft Brexit, or freedom of movement. Luckily we have existing democratic structures and principles for making collective decisions, and we should be using them. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/104 "2016-10-10T14:17:53Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > He goes on to make the point that those who voted Leave did so largely because they wanted to restore the sovereignty of Parliament - for the government to attempt to ignore that sovereignty is making a mockery of people’s votes. Indeed, and actually one of our major problems in handling EU issues over the decades was precisely that Parliament never really got on top of what successive governments were doing in the management of the sovereignty we’d pooled in the EU (let alone developing informed public debate until it was too late to do anything much about it) - an entirely homegrown problem. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/105 "2016-10-10T14:35:00Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Others may disagree but the idea of “wanting back in” has not really been considered. It’s far too early for that. There was some early talk of trying to reverse the decision with a 2nd referendum, or ignoring the referendum altogether. Far greater consideration has been given to either a hard Brexit or soft Brexit. Generally Brexiteers want a hard Brexit, Remainers want a soft Brexit, but this is not a hard and fast rule. Based on the popular press, it seems that Brexiteers don’t know what they want. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/106 "2016-10-10T15:01:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Based on the popular press… … is where you probably went wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/107 "2016-10-11T10:45:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Based on the popular press, it seems that Brexiteers don’t know what they want. This should be little surprise to anyone. Political movements are usually a coalition of various competing and sometimes conflicting interests. Im sure the Remain camp included an uneasy coalition of EU statists, full integrationists and the odd advocate of Britain joining the single currency. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/108 "2016-10-11T10:52:30Z")
Referendums: Why they are undemocratic, in two short posts: > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Based on the popular press, it seems that Brexiteers don’t know what they want. > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > This should be little surprise to anyone. Political movements are usually a coalition of various competing and sometimes conflicting interests. Im sure the Remain camp included an uneasy coalition of EU statists, full integrationists and the odd advocate of Britain joining the single currency. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/109 "2016-10-11T13:07:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Based on the popular press, it seems that Brexiteers don’t know what they want. Every newspaper has a different opinion. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/110 "2016-10-11T13:10:37Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > This should be little surprise to anyone. Political movements are usually a coalition of various competing and sometimes conflicting interests. Im sure the Remain camp included an uneasy coalition of EU statists, full integrationists and the odd advocate of Britain joining the single currency. There is a distinction, though. Whatever you think of remaining in the EU, it is at least a clear policy choice with known and knowable legal and political consequences and effects. Whereas “leave the EU” creates a policy vacuum; what is the UK to do in regard to trade, migration, employment protection, border control, etc, etc if it leaves the EU? The government had no plans to do anything at all in this event - they didn’t expect Brexit to be approved - and as a result offered no proposals and have no mandate for any particular course of action. Brexit supporters could construct any fantasy they like for what might be done if the UK left the Union, and imagine that they were voting for that. The result is that different Brexit voters were voting (in their own heads) for different things, some of which are inconsistent with one another and some of which are simple fantasies. The government has no mandate to do any of them and won’t do most of them, and many or most Brexit voters will feel betrayed. The lesson is not that referndums are undemocratic. Other EU countries have referenda on various questions relating to the EU (and indeed on various questions unrelated to the EU) and it mostly works out well. What is undemocratic and stupid is a government holding a referendum seeking a mandate for for a policy that it doesn’t wish to implement and has no idea how to implement. I predict that it will be a while before any British Government makes that mistake again. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/111 "2016-10-11T16:25:44Z")
The lesson is referendums should be on concrete actions not vague directions. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy\_Biro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Cliffy\_Biro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy_Biro)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/112 "2016-10-11T18:04:12Z")
I think David Cameron got a bit referendum-happy as his tenure went on. It became his way of settling political questions that he couldn’t get out of via normal politics. First the Alternative Vote referendum, which from his point of view was a triumph, a punch that the Lib Dems walked right into to get them into the coalition. Next was the considerably more risky Scottish independence vote, and then of course Brexit, by which point he was perhaps overconfident in his referendum prevailing powers. And then he pissed off the moment he lost it. His legacy will be: - Don’t hold referendums - If you must hold referendums, make sure they’re ones you will win - No but really, don’t hold referendums ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/113 "2016-10-12T06:30:59Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The lesson is not that referndums are undemocratic. Other EU countries have referenda on various questions relating to the EU (and indeed on various questions unrelated to the EU) and it mostly works out well. What is undemocratic and stupid is a government holding a referendum seeking a mandate for for a policy that it doesn’t wish to implement and has no idea how to implement. I predict that it will be a while before any British Government makes that mistake again. Referendums should not be held on just the basic principle, they should be on the policy itself. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/114 "2016-10-12T06:50:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Referendums should not be held on just the basic principle, they should be on the policy itself. Yes. If I recall correctly, when the UK held a referendum on the voting system there was a fully-fleshed out proposal as to the voting system to be introduced, subject to approval in the referndum. And each of the devolution referenda was based on already-enacted (but not yet in operation) legislation establishing Scottish/Welsh legislatures, devolving powers to them, and prescribing their relationship to the existing Westminster institutions. The contrast with the Brexit vote could not be starker. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/115 "2016-10-12T09:43:17Z")
And, indeed, the SNP produced an in-depth white paper laying out their plans for independence for the Scottish referendum. Criticism of the flaws in that paper played a large part in the eventual defeat, but that’s kind of the point - people need to know what they’re voting on - and what they’re not. It’s also a bonus if the government can be clear on this too. (I would still argue at tedious length that even referendums on concrete policies are undemocratic, but that may be for another thread.) Still, fair play to Cameron - he only had the referendum so he would no longer have to deal with internal party management problems, and he unquestionably succeeded in that goal. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/116 "2016-10-12T09:49:25Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yes. If I recall correctly, when the UK held a referendum on the voting system there was a fully-fleshed out proposal as to the voting system to be introduced, subject to approval in the referndum. And each of the devolution referenda was based on already-enacted (but not yet in operation) legislation establishing Scottish/Welsh legislatures, devolving powers to them, and prescribing their relationship to the existing Westminster institutions. > > The contrast with the Brexit vote could not be starker. Actually, the 1997 Scottish Referendum was on the principle (should there be a Scottish Parliament) and not the policy, because Blair was worried (he goes on this is his memoirs) that if they went with a specific proposal, many who might otherwise vote Yes, would vote No. As it is, I have heard some commentators that if the actual Scotland Act 1998 had been put to a referendum, then there is a good chance the result would have been “No”. Still, voting on the principle rather than the policy is a departure from earlier British practice. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/117 "2016-10-12T09:54:46Z")
I thought one of the criticisms of the SNP paper was that it was light on specifics and made many presumptions on Westminster’s willingness to act as they wanted it to act? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/118 "2016-10-12T10:02:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I thought one of the criticisms of the SNP paper was that it was light on specifics and made many presumptions on Westminster’s willingness to act as they wanted it to act? It was a 670-page wish list, but it at least acknowledged the scope of the changes that would be required. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/119 "2016-10-12T10:05:57Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > It was a 670-page wish list, but it at least acknowledged the scope of the changes that would be required. And the new government isn’t even giving parliament much of a chance to review and debate its wish-list for the Brexit negotiations (even assuming it’s yet agreed what should be on it). ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549/120 "2016-10-12T10:08:10Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > (even assuming it’s yet agreed what should be on it). Somewhere in Whitehall there is an otherwise-blank sheet of A4 headed “Brexit means Brexit”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-before-brexit-cnn-article-on-foreigners-leaving-uk/767549.md?page=7)