# Exit polls show wrong person elected in Ukraine, White House up in arms. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546 "2004-11-24T22:56:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/21 "2004-11-25T16:12:56Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > The sun shines even on a dog’s ass once in a while. So how’s the weather where _you_ are, **KC**? But yes, at least according to the reports and interviews I’ve heard there appears to have been some skulduggery in some districts, with one precinct returning 102% of registered voters and opposition observers physically removed from polling places and excluded from the vote counting in some areas (according to an opposition senator on the _Today_ programme this morning). There’s also a story going around that Yuschenko was poisoned (resulting in his current pock-marked appearance), although the other side dismisses this as a case of food poisoning. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/22 "2004-11-25T16:48:49Z")
No sweat. Soon as they figure out how its all Clinton’s fault, they’ll be cool, ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/23 "2004-11-25T17:08:03Z")
Another ‘fuck off’ to **KidCharlemagne** and **Dead Badger** for putting words into every one else’s mouths. Just about nobody west of Kiev considered the result to be genuine, and that was the case long before America made a sound. A few days ago I heard an interview with one seasoned electoral-fraud expert, who said he was astonished not only at the scale of the fraud, but also the imagination of the fraudsters - including acid being poured into ballot boxes and vanishing ink supplied to polling stations. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/24 "2004-11-25T17:43:35Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Another ‘fuck off’ to **KidCharlemagne** and **Dead Badger** for putting words into every one else’s mouths. Just about nobody west of Kiev considered the result to be genuine, and that was the case long before America made a sound. > > A few days ago I heard an interview with one seasoned electoral-fraud expert, who said he was astonished not only at the scale of the fraud, but also the imagination of the fraudsters - including acid being poured into ballot boxes and vanishing ink supplied to polling stations. Canada had a couple of parliamentary observers - one from the Liberals, one from the Conservatives - they both reported eyewitnessing fraud, though not of the imaginative type - more boring, like having duplicate ballot boxes to substitute for the official ones. Pitting America for objecting the the validity of this election is silly, as unless there is some sort of widespread conspiracy among many independant observers, it seems to be pretty certain that the election was a fraud. [Indeed, some of the Russiophiles I know don’t even dispute it - they simply say that the other guy is just as corrupt, so why all the complaining?] ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/25 "2004-11-25T18:05:45Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Another ‘fuck off’ to **KidCharlemagne** and **Dead Badger** for putting words into every one else’s mouths. Just about nobody west of Kiev considered the result to be genuine, and that was the case long before America made a sound. Whoa, whoa, whoa, there; please don’t lump me in with **KidCharlemagne** and his “every leftist thinks this” bullshit. I’m well aware that the vast majority of sane folk of either political stripe do indeed consider that the election was highly fraudulent. Indeed, my whole point was that anyone conversant with the facts would do so, and I was simply bemoaning the fact that some people, like the OP and **ElvisL1ves** , are apparently capable only of viewing the poll through a partisan US filter. If you do not do so, and you clearly don’t, then please don’t assume that I am talking about you. I’m not sure whose mouth you think I’m putting words into, but I assure you, my ire is reserved solely for those people who are actually talking as described. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/26 "2004-11-25T18:13:46Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > I was simply bemoaning the fact that some people, like the OP and **ElvisL1ves** , are apparently capable only of viewing the poll through a partisan US filter. I was denouncing **manhattan** for doing exactly that, not doing it myself. Sheesh. As for **manhattan** ’s latest diatribe, that might be worth responding to if he were simply being his usual childishly asswipish self. But that goes well beyond it, into the realm of Unabomberesque batshitness. There being no possibility of reasoning effectively with a lunatic, there is no point in trying, and no point in taking offense at anything he says either. Here’s a soothing pat on the head for you instead, **manny**. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/27 "2004-11-25T18:18:13Z")
Of course all I know about the Ukranian election is what the news papers and the broadcast media tell me. While that is largely conclusitory with little confirming detail, I am given to understand that there are several hundred thousand people in the streets of Kiev who seem to think that the result is questionable. That the government has not turned the Cossacks lose and instituted a general massacre suggests that these people are not mostly GOP staffers from Washington trying to prevent a recount as was the case four years ago in Florida. Certainly there is some national self interest in the US position, but the present government is one of the “Collation of the Willing” and an ally in the Iraqi segment of the War Against Terrorism. I would like to think that just once our government is standing on principle and not acting with a view to the next quarterly P & L statement. Consider also the hand of Russia and the prospect of the reassembly of the Soviet Empire. So, maybe not. As a guy who joined the Students for a Democratic Society in 1962, I’ll mach my Leftist/Liberal credentials against any one’s. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/28 "2004-11-25T18:32:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I was denouncing **manhattan** for doing exactly that, not doing it myself. Sheesh. But he didn’t. He explained why the exit polls in Ukraine are not the same as the exit polls in the US, and enumerated other reasons why the poll was considered fraudulent. You then came in and posted some bollocks about how he was only saying what he was because he was a good little Bushite. Lord knows how you think **manhattan** was the one being partisan, but I’ll ask you again: Do you agree or disagree that the election was probably fraudulent? If not, why not, and if you do, why did you blast **manhattan** for defending a position you yourself hold? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/29 "2004-11-25T19:12:11Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Of course all I know about the Ukranian election is what the news papers and the broadcast media tell me. While that is largely conclusitory with little confirming detail, I am given to understand that there are several hundred thousand people in the streets of Kiev who seem to think that the result is questionable. The [OSCE](http://www.osce.org/news/show_news.php?id=4547)’s statement from the day after the election is where much of the criticism has originated from. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/30 "2004-11-25T21:33:47Z")
> [@Balduran](#): > > (Can you imagine the uproar if Blair came to the US to campaign for Bush during the election?) His wife publicly endorsed Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/31 "2004-11-25T21:36:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > His wife publicly endorsed Kerry. Thankfully, we don’t regard the PM’s spouse as a political accessory - she’s free to have her own opinion. And in her job as a human rights lawyer, she’s repeatedly dealt with High Court cases where she’s directly opposed government policies, decisions and legislation. Imagine _that_ happening in America. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/32 "2004-11-25T22:14:49Z")
…bah Years of near dictatorship and an election with violent threats, widespread manipulation and fraud leaves Ukraine on the brink on revolution, Russia and the EU on opposite sides, with the future power balance of all of Europe at stake and talk of a return of a mini cold-war and all you seem to be able to extract from this is some lame back-hand hit on Bush. Get a fucking life you stupid idiot! The world doesn’t revolve around the US, Bush or the American election. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/33 "2004-11-26T07:18:18Z")
**Rune** said it. This is _big_. I’m in the neighbourhood (well, relatively speaking, and compared to most of you) and am trying to get a visa to be able to go there and see history in the making. The Ukrainian Supreme Court has said it will deal with Yushchenko’s appeal (he’s the guy who in all probability won) Monday and not allow an official announcement of the next president until they’ve done so. If they come out saying Yushchenko won, it’s quite probably that nothing will happen. If they say Yanukovich won, there is going to be some kind of trouble, although it’s impossible to say exactly what kind. Revolution, civil war, riots are all possibilities, and then we’re probably talking about a major international conflict with Russia on one side and the EU and the USA on the other side. I’m quite surprised that there isn’t more discussion about this matter here, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/34 "2004-11-26T07:48:14Z")
Does anyone here think that the notion of the current U.S. administration passing on the fairness of elections AT LEAST as funny as the notion of Sudan having a seat on the U.N. Human Rights Council? Is there no end to irony? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/35 "2004-11-26T10:08:24Z")
This is an interesting development: > [@](#): > > On Thursday, state-owned TV station UT1 rebelled against government control by announcing live on air that its news team was joining opposition protests. > > Hours earlier the private, formerly pro-government channel One Plus One announced it would stop broadcasting “biased news”. Both channels have said that they’re now going to start broadcasting both sides of the story. Whether this will mean genuine impartiality or a pro-opposition bias I don’t know, but it’s a positive sign thus far. And here’s the [alleged poisoning story](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4041321.stm) I mentioned above. Random doctors a thousand miles away are divided in their opinions, but it’s never too late to start a new conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/36 "2004-11-26T15:26:56Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Does anyone here think that the notion of the current U.S. administration passing on the fairness of elections AT LEAST as funny as the notion of Sudan having a seat on the U.N. Human Rights Council? No > [@](#): > > Is there no end to irony? Apparently there is not end to idiocy, at least on this board. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/37 "2004-11-26T16:49:47Z")
Another leftist here who thinks their election is full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/38 "2004-11-27T03:34:30Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > But he didn’t. He explained why the exit polls in Ukraine are not the same as the exit polls in the US, and enumerated other reasons why the poll was considered fraudulent. Which is simply part of justifying the _official_ election returns without the closer examination that is obviously due. > [@](#): > > Do you agree or disagree that the election was probably fraudulent? Already so stated. Is English not your native language? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/39 "2004-11-27T06:45:33Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > That said, they worked this time. So that’s something of a slap to the crowd that hates the machines because a Republican runs the company that makes them as opposed to for more rational reasons. Except that no one every suggested that the machines would result in more ballot spoilage. We don’t know if they worked or not, because the business model of the company precludes allowing anyone to know. And, just so you know, most studies of our exit polls have shown that the actual results and the polls are different to a degree that is outside the margin of error. However, the most likely conclusion for us is that there is a problem with the polling methodology, not the polls. In part because of all the other factors that make it unlikely that the election was stolen. Which is pretty ironic when you think about it. One black box system trying to keep another one honest. And they both worked flawlessly! Or at least, for all WE know they could have! ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546/40 "2004-11-27T15:58:44Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I’m a leftist and I believe the election was illegitimate. So, fuck off, you coprophagic bottom-dweller. How’s that for leftist argument, you scum sucking denizen of the last 1/4 inch of warm beer in a bottle that’s been under the coffee table for a week. Typical of your usual arguments: fallacious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exit-polls-show-wrong-person-elected-in-ukraine-white-house-up-in-arms/276546.md?page=3)