# Expel all the trash to space! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245 "2011-11-08T03:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/21 "2011-11-08T05:08:46Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > A simple way of looking at it: every rocket (except for the retired Shuttle) has most of its structure fall off in flight due to staging. It comes back to Earth and falls into the ocean as trash. So even discounting the other costs, you’re going to produce around 10 pounds of trash on Earth for every one that you send to orbit. Even the shuttle burned 3.6 million pounds of propellant per flight to put a 240,000 pound orbiter up. The vast majority of this burned propellant stayed on earth. ---
**Author:** ![jrriojase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@jrriojase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrriojase)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/22 "2011-11-08T05:11:14Z")
Wow, those are some really, incredibly great responses from all of you. Never would’ve imagined all those numbers being so high, and everyone seems to know something, and when all that comes together, this great forum is formed. I think I might just be spending more time here; just joined today. I’ll try to share all the funny stuff that happens in high school in here, with people who understand how it feels. I think most of you are older than me, for at least 5 or so years, so I think that some high school stories about ignorance can cheer someone up one day 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/23 "2011-11-08T05:16:56Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Suppose we were able to fling the trash into the sun? Irrespective of the cost issue, would that be an acceptable and permanent way of disposing of things? Seems to me that a star is the ultimate trash furnace. We don’t want to do that, even for nuclear waste. Trash is a valuable store of materials, and the only reason we don’t recycle more of it is because it’s not always cheaper to recycle. But that’s not always going to be the case, especially for some of the more rare elements like gold. One day we will want to recycle every speck of trash, and we’d definitely regret it if we had fired it into the sun (even if we could do it for free). Elements used in nuclear reactors are a particularly valuable resource, so any proposal to store them in a permanently inaccessible way is also stupid. There is no shortage of free space for landfills. Only a tiny fraction of a percent of land area is needed, and it doesn’t need to be otherwise productive (arable, etc.). So just dig a big hole and put the trash there. Your grandkids will thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/24 "2011-11-08T05:19:02Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Even the shuttle burned 3.6 million pounds of propellant per flight to put a 240,000 pound orbiter up. The vast majority of this burned propellant stayed on earth. Yup. I was just trying to keep things simple by focusing on the hold-them-in-your-hand structural parts. It’s a bit subtle to argue that exhaust cases count as trash (especially since most of it is water vapor). ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/25 "2011-11-08T05:24:49Z")
> [@jrriojase](#): > > Now I had to keep calm as I’ve gotten in deep shit for telling other people (even teachers) how horribly wrong they are, and I had been doing good for the last half year, but oh lord, it just hurt me so bad to see all the class cheering at her for such a wonderful idea, and I told her, loudly, that her idea was extremely stupid. Come here, son—you’ll make a fine addition to the Collective. We’ll pass the mantle to you in a few years when we’re all pooping our Adult Depends. > [@jrriojase](#): > > What would you have said to that girl? Why can’t Jesus just ride in on his dinosaur and wave his magic wand and make it all disappear? ---
**Author:** ![jrriojase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@jrriojase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrriojase)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/26 "2011-11-08T05:28:41Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Come here, son—you’ll make a fine addition to the Collective. We’ll pass the mantle to you in a few years when we’re all pooping our Adult Depends. > > Why can’t Jesus just ride in on his dinosaur and wave his magic wand and make it all disappear? LOL, yeah, I think that would’ve been a very humorous response to her, but only for me because all the class would’ve jumped on me, insulting me as an atheist, as if it was an insult. I beg your pardon, but what was that first part of your post? I just joined today and I’m not from the US, so could you please explain? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/27 "2011-11-08T05:30:23Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Suppose we were able to fling the trash into the sun? Irrespective of the cost issue, would that be an acceptable and permanent way of disposing of things? Seems to me that a star is the ultimate trash furnace. Well, don’t know much about that I admit, but I would surmise that we’d have a vested interest in not overly changing the composition or mass of the Sun or possibly interfering with its chemical reaction(s). I mean, if something as comparatively slight as naturally occurring solar flares can mess with our environment through radiation emissions, I don’t wanna know what a hundred tons of kinetic discarded Hello Kitty merchandise could do. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Actually if we could build one you could launch stuff into deep space for little cost (beyond whatever it cost to build the thing in the first place). You just extend the cable out past geosynchonous orbit and let whatever you are planning to launch slide down the cable; the Earth’s own rotation will fling it away when it reaches the end of the tether. IIRC if it extends as far “up” as the lower half of the cable extends down you can launch something out to the orbit of Saturn. [/QUOTE] Hmm. Didn’t know that. Thanks. However the space elevator scenario, while saving up a lot on launch costs, still presents a large logistical issue. Namely: before flinging it into space, we’d need to collect all of our trash at the foot of the elevator (considering the ginormous building and maintenance costs involved, I’m going to assume we’re building one, maybe one per continent, tops). Even if we limit this thought experiment to domestic US waste, that’s still a _lot_ of shit to shuffle overland, with its own energy and infrastructural costs… and its own waste, teehee. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/28 "2011-11-08T05:39:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t wanna know what a hundred tons of kinetic discarded Hello Kitty merchandise could do. A hundred tons of Hello Kitty merchandise _made from pure antimatter_ would still be a fart in the wind compared to even a smallish solar flare, as far as the sun is concerned. I suspect you could drop the entire Earth into the sun and it wouldn’t change a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/29 "2011-11-08T05:49:10Z")
> [@jrriojase](#): > > I beg your pardon, but what was that first part of your post? I just joined today and I’m not from the US, so could you please explain? Somebody has to carry on the legacy of the Perfect Master’s minions when we’ve all been reduced to watching daytime TV and paging the nurse every half hour to ask if it’s time for our Vicodin yet. ---
**Author:** ![jrriojase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@jrriojase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrriojase)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/30 "2011-11-08T05:58:10Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Somebody has to carry on the legacy of the Perfect Master’s minions when we’ve all been reduced to watching daytime TV and paging the nurse every half hour to ask if it’s time for our Vicodin yet. Oh! It makes much more sense now that I read it again, hahaha well, yes, I don’t plan on leaving this forum anytime soon 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/31 "2011-11-08T06:10:59Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Strangelove] I suspect you could drop the entire Earth into the sun and it wouldn’t change a thing. [/QUOTE] Well it would really drive real estate prices down for one thing. Besides, I’d always suspected that butterflies were harmless too, but apparently the little blighters cause tornadoes in Texas. I’m just saying, if there’s one thing that we really, \*really \*can’t afford to fuck up by thinking we know what we’re doing when it turns out we’ve overlooked something or not quite thought it all the way through, as we’ve been doing with some consistency since forever, it’s our own Sun. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/32 "2011-11-08T06:13:46Z")
> [@jrriojase](#): > > Wow, those are some really, incredibly great responses from all of you. Never would’ve imagined all those numbers being so high, and everyone seems to know something, and when all that comes together, this great forum is formed. I think I might just be spending more time here; just joined today. I’ll try to share all the funny stuff that happens in high school in here, with people who understand how it feels. I think most of you are older than me, for at least 5 or so years, so I think that some high school stories about ignorance can cheer someone up one day 😉 Welcome to to SDMB. Hope you stick around! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/33 "2011-11-08T07:48:37Z")
I’m no astrophysicist, but I imagine that it would not actually be possible to fire anything “into” the sun. Long, long before it reached the outer corona, anything we fired at the sun would be blasted into its component atoms and flung back out into the system by the solar wind. Even if we could get something actually _into_ the sun, there’s no way we could “fuck it up.” Remember, if the Sun were the size of an orange, the entire Earth would be smaller than the head of a pin. ([This may help your visualization efforts.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8CgDGhYKe8)) The sun is also a _nuclear_ furnace. Which means it gets its energy from cracking open atoms and rearranging their various bits into new elements. Nothing humans can create could survive such a titanic engine of destruction. Anything we tried to launch into the sun would quickly be broken down into its component elements, and those elements broken down into hydrogen or carbon, or something else from a short list of simple elements. Getting back to the OP, something else you could have mentioned: while I don’t mean to underestimate the problem of solid waste disposal, the major environmental threat we’re facing in the short term is not caused by having too many plastic Pepsi bottles lying around: it’s caused by the processes used to _make_ those bottles. So her plan would be self defeating in two ways: firing all those rockets into space would pump even more CO2 into the atmosphere, and factories would have to work even harder to produce new Pepsi bottles to replace the ones we’ve just fired at Alpha Eridani, creating even more CO2. Since nitwits like this only like solutions when they can’t immediately see the potential costs to themselves, remind her that, in the last fifty or so years of manned space exploration, NASA has managed to lose three spacecraft. And that’s with every launch being supervised by a battalion of scientists, engineers, and elite pilots. Now consider the degradation in services that would be necessary if NASA (or her related agencies in other countries) had to take over the responsibilities of every trash hauling service on Earth. Then ask her how she’d feel about having the space garbage scow _Challenger_ flying directly over her house every Friday morning. Lastly, since she seemed to believe that “any cost is worth our lives” is an unbeatable comeback, ask her exactly what sacrifices she’s making to reduce her ecological footprint. The beauty of this one is that, no matter what answer she has, you should be able to find a way that she could do even more, no matter how ridiculous or disruptive it would be on her life. After all, “any cost” means “any cost.” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/34 "2011-11-08T08:05:07Z")
Help me out here… There’s a sci-fi story, maybe a novel, maybe shorter, with a slightly similar premise. This guy gets a job in trash disposal, and has a brilliant insight. As a government agency, his department has unlimited postage, so they begin to mail their trash to everywhere in the universe. I think at some point a sun goes supernova somehow related to this. Definitely comical – I’m thinking Harry Harrison, but I’m not sure of the author. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/35 "2011-11-08T08:15:45Z")
Putting all our trash into outer space is obviously nonsense, but could a case be made for highly toxic trash though? I’m primarily thinking radioactive nuclear waste with a very long half life, but maybe very dangerous biological waste could also be a good fit. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/36 "2011-11-08T08:18:32Z")
I’m not familiar with that story, **Boyo Jim** , but I do know of an awesome short story about a different application of this sort of thinking, called [The Clockwork Atom Bomb](http://www.theshortstory.org.uk/stories/index.php4?storyid=5). > [@bldysabba](#): > > Putting all our trash into outer space is obviously nonsense, but could a case be made for highly toxic trash though? I’m primarily thinking radioactive nuclear waste with a very long half life, but maybe very dangerous biological waste could also be a good fit. That is the _least_ suitable type of trash to dump into space. At least ordinary rubbish would simply prove to be impossibly impractical. NBC materials on the other hand… what happens the first time a rocket fails, and dumps all that toxic waste into the atmosphere? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/37 "2011-11-08T08:29:32Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > … maybe very dangerous biological waste could also be a good fit. High-temperature incineration can deal with that, relatively cheaply and safely. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/38 "2011-11-08T08:34:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Even if we could get something actually _into_ the sun, there’s no way we could “fuck it up.” Remember, if the Sun were the size of an orange, the entire Earth would be smaller than the head of a pin. ([This may help your visualization efforts.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8CgDGhYKe8)) The sun is also a _nuclear_ furnace. Which means it gets its energy from cracking open atoms and rearranging their various bits into new elements. Nothing humans can create could survive such a titanic engine of destruction. Anything we tried to launch into the sun would quickly be broken down into its component elements, and those elements broken down into hydrogen or carbon, or something else from a short list of simple elements. Oh, I didn’t mean fuck it up in the “we might BLOW UP THE SUN” sense of the word, more in the sense of ever so slight variations that could nevertheless have unforeseen repercussions. Like… you know how we can detect submarines from the air via magnetic anomaly detection, because the simple presence of such a small, localized concentration of iron creates very tiny variations in the Earth’s magnetic field ? Something of the sort, that would nevertheless impact little old us. Somehow. But, yeah, I’m no astrophysicist either. I’m not even a physicist. In fact I flunked physics big time in college, so don’t mind me I suppose 🙂 > [@](#): > > Lastly, since she seemed to believe that “any cost is worth our lives” is an unbeatable comeback, ask her exactly what sacrifices she’s making to reduce her ecological footprint. The beauty of this one is that, no matter what answer she has, you should be able to find a way that she could do even more, no matter how ridiculous or disruptive it would be on her life. After all, “any cost” means “any cost.” I like the way you think. That being said, I must warn the OP that when I once tried a similar form of rhetorical judo on a self-righteous vegetarian-but-fish-is-OK girlfriend to try and get her to tone the preachy down a notch, by the end of the debate she’d turned into an ex-girlfriend. Which, looking back, was quite a silly reason to burn a friendship over. But I was RIGHT, goddammit ! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/39 "2011-11-08T08:42:49Z")
nm (someone already said it) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/40 "2011-11-08T09:39:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Perhaps calling someone stupid is counter-productive, as is displaying arrogance. (Even if the person, like Trash Girl, has an extremely ill-conceived notion.) Don’t call her stupid, call her Trash Girl. 😉 Seriously, some fights just aren’t worth it. Consider it a life lesson, make fun of her if you’re bored, and move on with your life. You don’t need to win every argument - no one’s keeping score. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245.md?page=3)