# Expel all the trash to space! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245 "2011-11-08T03:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/41 "2011-11-08T09:41:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That is the _least_ suitable type of trash to dump into space. At least ordinary rubbish would simply prove to be impossibly impractical. > > NBC materials on the other hand… what happens the first time a rocket fails, and dumps all that toxic waste into the atmosphere? Didn’t think of incineration for biological waste, **Giles** is right there. Nuclear waste though - a huge stockpile on earth would also stand some non zero chance of catastrophic failure, especially over the very long time horizon that such waste remains dangerous(hundreds of years). Earthquake, terror incident, some other such. I admit that the space disposal idea is impractical, especially given current efficiencies and safety records. A little research shows however that the idea was explored quite seriously (and then abandoned) by NASA in the 1970’s for those very reasons, so it isn’t completely crazy talk. Space launch capabilities haven’t really moved forward since then, but are expanding(or are projected to expand) quite rapidly now. I think it may be a viable option contingent on how things develop. Might even be a revenue stream to consider for private launch companies. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/42 "2011-11-08T12:56:29Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Help me out here… There’s a sci-fi story, maybe a novel, maybe shorter, with a slightly similar premise. This guy gets a job in trash disposal, and has a brilliant insight. As a government agency, his department has unlimited postage, so they begin to mail their trash to everywhere in the universe. I think at some point a sun goes supernova somehow related to this. > > Definitely comical – I’m thinking Harry Harrison, but I’m not sure of the author. You’re describing a section in Harrison’s “Bill, the Galactic Hero”, the first (and as far as I can tell, by far the best) in his “Bill” series. Bill has stumbled into a government job disposing of the huge amount of trash produced by the entirely urbanized capital planet of Helior. Among other things, Helior produces and discards an incredible number of plastic cafeteria trays, and Bill gets the idea of mailing them in lots of fifty to randomly-selected citizens on other worlds. This turns out to be an improvement over previous schemes, one of which involved using a wormhole to funnel trays directly into a nearby star, which had the unfortunate effect of making that star go nova. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/43 "2011-11-08T13:30:55Z")
Someday we will not only dispose of our trash in space, [we will dump it on one of those ultra-rare human-habitable-in-shirtsleeves planets with an Earthlike atmosphere and temperature-range and surface gravity and a native biosphere](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier_(film)) instead of an airless moon, or a star. Force of tradition, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/44 "2011-11-08T13:32:57Z")
Would the processes of a space flight probably create more trash than it could actually carry, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/45 "2011-11-08T13:34:30Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Would the processes of a space flight probably create more trash than it could actually carry, anyway? Nah. Just strap the extra bags on the hull with bungee cords. It always works. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/46 "2011-11-08T13:41:15Z")
Besides the costs, we are going to need that trash someday. As mentioned above, a lot of it contains hard-to-find elements and compounds. Who knows what future generations will be able to do with it. Especially nuclear waste. After all, the Romans thought oil was just something that messed up their water wells. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/47 "2011-11-08T14:28:46Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Besides the costs, we are going to need that trash someday. As mentioned above, a lot of it contains hard-to-find elements and compounds. Who knows what future generations will be able to do with it. Especially nuclear waste. After all, the Romans thought oil was just something that messed up their water wells. Well, we could dump it on the Moon – no local biosphere to poison, as far away as we could ask, near enough to find the stuff again when we want it. But, somehow, [that never works out,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_1999) and horrible scripting ensues, to say nothing of the acting. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/48 "2011-11-08T15:06:36Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > There is no shortage of free space for landfills. Only a tiny fraction of a percent of land area is needed, and it doesn’t need to be otherwise productive (arable, etc.). So just dig a big hole and put the trash there. Your grandkids will thank you. DING! DING! DING! THIS IS EXACTLY IT! Little miss space trash girl came up with a solution for a problem that doesn’t even exist. Ask her who told her we were running out of places to put our trash. We’re not. We never will. Places that claim they have nowhere to put their trash just mean they have nowhere to put it that’s close by. It just too expensive for New Jersey to truck their trash to Nebraska. You could put all of the United States trash for the next 10 years in the middle of nowhere Nevada and it wouldn’t even be a blip on anyone’s radar. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/49 "2011-11-08T15:25:39Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > DING! DING! DING! > THIS IS EXACTLY IT! > Little miss space trash girl came up with a solution for a problem that doesn’t even exist. Ask her who told her we were running out of places to put our trash. We’re not. Weellll . . . Nevertheless, solid-waste disposal is a problem that exists. It’s not an existential threat to human civilization or the biosphere, but it’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/50 "2011-11-08T15:37:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Weellll . . . Nevertheless, solid-waste disposal is a problem that exists. It’s not an existential threat to human civilization or the biosphere, but it’s a problem. Yep. It’s a problem, but not for the reasons of no place to put it. From [this article](http://saferenvironment.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/solid-waste-disposal-a-burning-problem-to-be-resolved-to-save-environment/): “Sanitary landfill is the cheapest satisfactory means of disposal, but only if suitable land is within economic range of the source of the wastes.” It’s a problem because of the economic costs to transport it. And transporting it to Nevada is still way, way, way cheaper than outer space. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/51 "2011-11-08T15:44:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re describing a section in Harrison’s “Bill, the Galactic Hero”, the first (and as far as I can tell, by far the best) in his “Bill” series. Bill has stumbled into a government job disposing of the huge amount of trash produced by the entirely urbanized capital planet of Helior. Among other things, Helior produces and discards an incredible number of plastic cafeteria trays, and Bill gets the idea of mailing them in lots of fifty to randomly-selected citizens on other worlds. This turns out to be an improvement over previous schemes, one of which involved using a wormhole to funnel trays directly into a nearby star, which had the unfortunate effect of making that star go nova. YES! Thank you! An extremely dark comedy. Now I remember, Bill even ends up with another guy’s teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/52 "2011-11-08T15:50:20Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Suppose we were able to fling the trash into the sun? Irrespective of the cost issue, would that be an acceptable and permanent way of disposing of things? Seems to me that a star is the ultimate trash furnace. The Sun is the most difficult place in the Universe for us to reach in terms of energy required. It would literally take more energy to “fling” trash into the Sun than it would to put it on a trajectory to interstellar space. Nor is their any particular reason to through waste into the Sun, even persistent hazardous waste; putting it an long orbit that does not re-intersect the Earth’s orbit is sufficient to remove it as a plausible hazard. However, for all of the reasons already explained, this is neither a practical nor desirable solution to waste management. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/53 "2011-11-08T16:32:27Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > YES! Thank you! An extremely dark comedy. Now I remember, Bill even ends up with another guy’s teeth. Kinda. Along the way, Bill’s left arm gets blown off during a space battle and the doctor transplants on an arm from a guy who didn’t make it. The replacement arm is extremely well muscled, though there are two concerns: 1. The donor was black, and Bill is not, though this is minor. 2. The arm attached was the donor’s _right_ arm. Bill now has two right arms, which is a nuisance, but he can salute with either, as well as shake hands with himself. Later on in the book, Bill’s hated drill instructor, Deathwish Drang, dies in battle. Deathwish had two surgically-implanted oversized fangs to make himself look more intimidating (“There’s a story going around that I killed and ate a recruit that displeased me. That story is true.”) and Bill has them transplanted into himself. Bill also blows off his own right foot to get out of battle. A series of foot replacements of varying degrees of usefulness forms a running gag through the subsequent books, which otherwise drop sharply in quality. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/54 "2011-11-09T00:46:42Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Would the processes of a space flight probably create more trash than it could actually carry, anyway? See posts #11 and 19 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/55 "2011-11-09T00:56:46Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > A simple way of looking at it: every rocket (except for the retired Shuttle) has most of its structure fall off in flight due to staging. It comes back to Earth and falls into the ocean as trash. So even discounting the other costs, you’re going to produce around 10 pounds of trash on Earth for every one that you send to orbit. Agreed! Now, OTOH, if we had a [space elevator](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator), **then** space disposal might be shut up! I know! doesn’t matter! we can **use** this! use anything! star wars never made any sense either, did it?! the solution to our trash problems! 🙂 And then (for access whenever we might decide we want to retrieve some of this stuff), we could bundle it all in one big near-Earth-orbit Trashteroid that gets bigger over the decades . . . the hypothetical disintegration or diversion or “falling” of which becomes a reliable source of Hollywood space-comedy plots . . . ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/56 "2011-11-09T01:22:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Agreed! Now, OTOH, if we had a [space elevator](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator), **then** space disposal might be shut up! I know! doesn’t matter! we can **use** this! use anything! star wars never made any sense either, did it?! the solution to our trash problems! 🙂 If you’ve got one of those, you can use it for energy generation. You need a \*really \*big space elevator; well past geostationary orbit. You lift up a big mass (of trash), and although you’re expending energy at first, past 35 Mm the mass is “falling” upward, and you can use that energy to recover your initial investment and then some. Sure, you’re stealing angular momentum from the Earth, but who’s going to notice… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/57 "2011-11-09T01:59:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Hmm. Didn’t know that. Thanks. > However the space elevator scenario, while saving up a lot on launch costs, still presents a large logistical issue. Namely: before flinging it into space, we’d need to collect all of our trash at the foot of the elevator (considering the ginormous building and maintenance costs involved, I’m going to assume we’re building one, maybe one per continent, tops). > Even if we limit this thought experiment to domestic US waste, that’s still a _lot_ of shit to shuffle overland, with its own energy and infrastructural costs… and its own waste, teehee. You wouldn’t want to dump all the trash. Probably 4/5 of the trash our house generates goes into compost or recycle, which helps a lot. You might want to put really nasty trash on the space elevator, since if it breaks a bit of toxic waste is going to be the least of our problems. Dumping it would be nearly free. You’d think that there would be a good number of pods going up all the time to reduce time required to wait for one, and that they won’t all be filled in the steady state condition. A simple modification can be used to add a trash module, our you can put them between habitable modules. As for what to do with it, some might be usable as reaction mass or as raw materials for radiation shielding and the like. Remember, in space no one can smell your trash. I’m not sure I’d want to just launch it. When we start heading for the planets, which should happen quickly once we reduce the cost of getting stuff to orbit, I’d hate to be heading home and into an ever widening cone of high velocity trash. Could ruin your whole day. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/58 "2011-11-09T02:10:22Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The costs invilved in space fligth are not something most people really know. Once you explain the cost and pollution the kid sees the problem and learning has happened. The best way to describe it is this; if there were piles of 100% pure gold bars stacked in neat piles on the most accessible parts of the surface of the Moon, it wouldn’t be worth it to go get them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/59 "2011-11-09T02:15:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The best way to describe it is this; if there were piles of 100% pure gold bars stacked in neat piles on the most accessible parts of the surface of the Moon, it wouldn’t be worth it to go get them. Not even if the Lunar “seas” were real ones and filled with petroleum. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245/60 "2011-11-09T02:18:26Z")
Of course, that’s all for space-to-Earth transportation. For space-based manufacturing, the materials economics would be rather different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/expel-all-the-trash-to-space/602245.md?page=4)