At least there were mints. I put a dollar in one of those ‘Jerry’s Kids’ jars and no one ever showed up to clean my chimney. :mad:
Methinks they are all Lyon.
~VOW
I got it from intertile:
In my example, you spent $10,000, so you’re supposed to get $3,600 back in savings. The store pitched in $500. So that other $3,100 needs to come from the pyramid scheme: recruiting new members and new merchants.
I believe you misunderstand what “profit” means. Otherwise that math above comes out even worse. Take a typical grocery store, which operates on margins of 10% or less. You spend $10,000 there in a year (I know, that’s a big number, but bear with me). The store makes a profit of $1,000 or less. If 5% of that profit goes to Lyoness, then they’d have a grand total of FIFTY BUCKS to generate $3,600 (which is what it takes to achieve a 36% saving/rebate back to you.
Of course not. If Lyoness stopped getting that $3780 from new businesses signing up, they wouldn’t have the cash to pay out the “accounting units.”
I’d like to know if you have a vested interest in this, DocV888. Your numbers are misleading, your math is wrong, your claims are impossible, and yet you continue to defend what is clearly an MLM scheme. Are you not listening to us because you really don’t get it, or because you are being paid by Lyoness to defend them?
Bullshit. There is always attrition. There is always someone who thought it sounded great in the sales pitch, but then realized the reality wasn’t what they thought they were getting or they won’t use it right or just don’t like the hassle of the card or the going online to check up on it or whatever. There are always people who just stop using the product.
Repeating it doesn’t make it any less bullshit. Loyalty cards, selecting your shopping locations, looking things up online, tracking your “discounts”, etc is hassle.
There may be no tangible product being sold (as opposed to Amway), but there is a product being sold - participation in the scheme.
I should hope so! Money can always be passed to family. Or anyone else you desire.
Bullshit. There’s always risk. If I buy into the program at $225, then decide I want out, how do I get my $225 back? The only way described so far is to participate in the program until I achieve $675 worth of purchases, at 1-2% per purchase.
This is not a witch hunt, it’s simply a call for straightforward explanation of the program.
5 people at $225 each = $1125. 18 units at $75/unit = $1350. … Are you counting the original investment units ($225) in that total, or are you saying just those five people created the 18 units? Because the latter doesn’t add up, so I think you must mean the former.
Okay, so this means using accummulated points to pay the “discount” fee that Lyoness would collect from the vendor. You walk out the door paying $225 less than the retail price, and the system records that as money the vendor doesn’t have to submit to Lyoness. Correct?
Okay, this is what was confusing me, but I finally figured it out. What you are calling a “discount” is not, in fact, a discount. A discount is a reduction in the price that you pay on the spot. What you are describing is, in fact, a rebate. The consumer would pay out exactly the price tag price at the door, then the vendor tallies the merchant percent and submits that to Lyonness, then Lyonness applies appropriate percentages to the original consumer as a rebate.
(Side note, I am getting really annoyed by these rebate loyalty plans. They advertise cash back or discounts, but what they really want is for you to sign up for some loyalty program and card/account, then rebate you through discounts and coupons. This just happened to me with Staples. I took in used printer toner cartridges for their $2/cartridge rebate plan, but had to sign up to get the rebate in email, in the form of a coupon. I don’t want a fucking coupon emailed to me a week later that has an expiration date on it, I want cash money at the original point of purchase. Dammit!)
You folk keep saying this, but it is not true. The negotiated percentage price is a percentage of gross cost of product. It may be that the negotiated percentage is covered by the profit margins, but 7% is a pretty high margin for many retail outlets.
So this is a pyramid scheme with a twist, that the pyramid is not on members, but on “accounting units”. Creative obfuscation.
Now now, to be fair, there are always a few idiots running around this place. There’s always someone needing their ignorance fought.
Awesome post.
I just wanted to pipe up that every once in a while, every once in a great while, things work out. Remember a few years ago when MS Bing rolled out their shopping search? Holy cow did I make out like a bandit. We had a host of computer equipment and house electronics to get that year, plus it was the holiday shopping period.
There were Bing-exclusive discounts. The HP store, for example, gave an additional 20 percent for logging in through Bing (and as hyper-cynical as I am, I compared prices at the site from a different computer and ISP). Then, Bing was tracking things you purchased through them and kicked back an actual cash back percentage. So Black Friday sale + Bing discount + cash back … I received an $800+ check (a real check, too) and saved between two and three grand over non-Bing-cookied shopping. Yowza.
Sometimes, good things are out there.
Unlike the subject of a certain OP.
Which is exactly why they don’t give it to you then. If they did, you might not come back. And when you sign up, they gotcha on the email list, which is more valuable to them than most anything.
I’ve got one small part of this mystery figured out … how they managed to get companies like Walmart, BP, and Lowes, etc. involved.
You can use the Lyoness card to get a small (1 to 2%) discount on purchases from some big companies, but you can’t go into the store and present the card, nor can you order directly from the company online and get your discount. You have to click through from the link on the Lyoness website … the affiliate link.
They (Lyoness) have simply opened an affiliate account with those companies and will rebate you a small part of their affiliate earnings. Anybody can open an affiliate account online. It does not mean that Walmart has listened to their presentation and signed an agreement, it just means Lyoness filled out an online form. You can do it yourself. Become a Wal-Mart Affiliate
It appears there are few, if any, actual businesses where you can present a Lyoness card and claim a discount – most likely just a few scattered small businesses whose owners got suckered into buying into the scam.
Oh I understand why they do it. Doesn’t make it less annoying. I would be happier if they gave me a discount on the item I actually purchased, or a store credit in the form of a gift card. But expiring rebates are tiresome. They are counting on that and that a certain percentage of people will fail to collect on those rebates. Free money for them.
You are 100% correct. The same pattern is followed in every country, where people peddling this scheme claim that Lyoness has “signed agreements” with multiple high-profile retailers. This adds a veneer of legitimacy to the scheme, and then unsuspecting small businesses shell out thousands of dollars to get involved.
Here are links to affiliate pages of some of the best known brands that are currently “associated” with Lyoness. Anybody with a website can “sign” these deals in a matter of seconds.
Reebok: http://www.reebok.com/US/customer-service/Affiliates
Dell: Computers, Monitors & Technology Solutions | Dell USA
Skype: Free Online Meetings & Video Calls | Microsoft Teams
iTunes: Program Overview - Apple Services Performance Partners
AOL: http://info.aol.co.uk/products/affiliates.adp
Tesco: http://www.tesco.com/affiliates/
PC World: http://www.pcworldbusiness.co.uk/misc/affiliate/
B&Q: http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/templa...ates/index.jsp
PUMA: http://www.shop.puma.com/Affiliate-P…,en_US,pg.html
Macys: http://www.macys.com/campaign/affiliate.jsp
Walmart: http://affiliates.walmart.com/aff_home.jsp
Great question. The stock answer from those pushing the scheme usually involves (a) encouraging people to “get in early” to maximise future profits (naming companies like Microsoft and Facebook is encouraged here…such tactics work remarkably well on dumb people) and (b) promising businesses exclusivity in their local area.
Another poster said the scheme is in “Phase 3” in 5 countries. A 6th country (Romania) is usually included on other forum replies, but in any case, the upshot is the same: 2 million card holders globally represents only a tiny market penetration in any individual country. This would suggest that there is no urgency whatsoever to “getting involved” early. (Side note: the claimed 2 million figure impresses people in Europe much more than those in the US).
This is by far the best, most insightful discussion on this topic globally. Please keep researching and asking questions to help speed up the process of uncovering this pyramid scheme for what it is.
Why does it need “uncovered”. The scam seems obvious on first glance. Caveat Emptor!
Because thousands of people have fallen victim to it already, and many more will, until such time as it is definitively and publicly proven to be a pyramid scheme.
I liken it to GIGO’s efforts with the GW Trolls. It’s a bit roundabout, but he (and others) makes my work just a littttle bit more effective. Without his (and others, I really don’t want to slight anyone) seemingly infinite patience to respond to the same logic that we see by Lyoness proponents, the obfuscations and handwaving would be left to linger–giving an unfortunate veneer of credibility to otherwise empty folderol.
I don’t know if Lyoness does it, but I smirk when I hear a non-product say things like “as seen in the Wall Street Gerbil!” Not that there was an article on it, just a small classified ad or some such … but you could still read about it~
Oh, and Hi Bananaman–if the idea of fighting ignorance appeals, you’ll be very happy here. Welcome!
In 2007, Americans spent three billion dollars on homeopathy. If people are stupid enough to pay for magical water, what makes you think you can educate them about MLM and pyramids???
The tagline for this website is “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973”. Perhaps your more laissez-faire approach would be better suited to another forum.
Now, now. Kayaker is just being realistic. We try, we really try. 
I got involved with Lyoness. Got the “this is the next big thing” talk at the presentations and from all the other mugs who had signed up before me. When you ask all the mugs hard questions they never had the answers. So I started asking some hard questions and put them straight to Head Office. They couldn’t answer them so I demanded my money back. And they have returned it to me. Yet when I signed up I was told that your money just wouldn’t be returned to you and couldn’t be returned. Instead you had to “shop it off” and spend money through the Lyoness system to recuperate your money through discounts you would get on your spending through Lyoness. So why did they give me my money back?? Because I hit a nerve. And although I have gotten my money back I am still inclined to expose them. If at the end of a through investigation and all information is in the public domian and Lyoness can conclusively explain themselves (pros and cons) then I will be satisfied.
For anyone who is interested follow me on http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056528522&page=13
I was having lunch at Unicorn off Baggot Street in Dublin and I noticed that they have a Lyoness sticker on their entrance. Depressing stuff.
It has been fantastic read so far.
Here is my rant, sorry if it is boring, but I want to clarify this in my mind by telling it loud.
I had been contacted by my friend about this amazing way to make totally free money and he claims he already earned s***load, more than from his fulltime job. (no numbers provided)
But after reading tons of post one thing is very clear, most people are just delusional mostly because they become too greedy.
Now, let me first point out that at some level the lyoness system is a pretty foolproof concept (for them). Yes, it works on the very same old MLM principle, but it is actually done pretty clever way because the product is also the MLM hook. (unlike let’s say Amway, unless you get paid in dish soap)
Here is from what I understand so far
- you always get your tiny discount, the lyoness will purchase gift cards in bulk and those come with a % discount already (there is no trick, simple arbitrage, my own bank does this as well, they can buy those gift cards with discount from all major stores).
Also some merchants (small) will sign in as a direct participant and they simply send to lyoness % back as rebate.
Lioness divide the discount/rebates between the participants and themselves. All in all, you always get your tiny discount (not worth the hassle if you ask me) and I assume the Lyoness keeps a nice chunk for their bonuses. Merchants will sold lot of gift cards which are better than cash purchase (it is 100% spent money, you can’t return item purchased on gift card for money, only for store credit so they offer % on bulk card purchases).
So far so good for everybody. This is the “product”. And in fact it doesn’t matter. It can be anything. But in this case it works also as a hook!
Here where they will get on your greed.
There is possibility of getting far bigger “cash-back” which is in fact the “main” part of the game.
The “maturing units” and the complex accounting and 35/35 rule…that even after many of posts from converts and evangelists I don’t fully understand is just the obfuscation. They simply delay the “virtual” earnings until enough profit (many multiples of your expected earnings) trickle through the system from all your and your friends and recruits purchases and optional memberships and other arbitrage.
The point here is, where lot of people get this wrong,** it is not a ponzi scheme**, because there is no statement that **everybody **will get this “bonus” only the ones who recruit enough other friends or big spenders and they get share from their earnings and money they spent.
Simply said, if lyoness earns enough money from all the people you recruted and their discount arbitrage, they will give you a bit of it. A small bit. It is basically additional loyalty program, not much different from a cash-back in store but wrapped in a much more incomprehensible mumbo jumbo.
The key is they will give it to you, but all the people below will be in their own far slower and delayed maturing level, needing exponentially more and more of their own greedy or trusty friends and big spenders and so on. Pyramid reward program it is, ponzi it is not. (Madoff is a ponzi scheme because he said 10% for every participant)
The big problem with this, is that anybody (greedy or not) has to understand that for this big bonus you have to recruit many people usually from your close friends community (as my friend tried on me).
But by using mumbo jumbo on them and accounting matrixes and maturing things and some bogus graphs you actually knowingly obfuscate this little part that they are in exponentially worse position to get that “big” shiny free money. The mantra to feel good about yourself is that “I am actually helping them to spend less”. Uhm. No.
Unfortunately the system is build such way that you are trying to play on the greed or misfortune, pull your own little con man on your friends and family telling them about the big win hoping they will go on the bandwagon in the MLM chain, not just buy your “dish soap” which is in fact irrelevant but to start selling it and recruit as well. A classic MLM. Maybe you don’t see it, but you doing it. Same as my friend does.
Sadly, if you look at all those participants in this MLM game, most are in fact people who failed on similar schemes before, now without much money and friends, but believing “this time it is different” because the jargon is much more complex.
My points (IMHO):
- the Lyoness is what they say, it isn’t a scam and it isn’t ponzi
- it is absolutely no different than any other MLM where the product doesn’t matter
- it is obfuscated in more complex mumbo jumbo so it will look like “this time it is different” and “this time it will work for everybody”
- it counts on people greed not their need
- it is as any MLM a capitalism in its extreme where friends or family don’t matter but are encouraged to be viewed as “marks”
- you may save money and you may earn a lot(?) of money - (but at what cost?)
- it could last long even if people can’t get enough recruits after a time, the discount can still attract some penny pinchers - but ultimately it will become less lucrative for the providers
- it did made few millionaires
- it is not sustainable