# Explain a cryptic crossword clue **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** board-card-word-game\ **Created:** [June 18, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568 "2021-06-18T19:45:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/21 "2021-06-28T03:15:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I was catching up on some “Private Eye” cryptic crosswords from a few weeks ago and, lo and behold, there was this clue… > > China expels republican “devil” (5) > > Answer being …? well I suspect the good dopers of this parish are now well equipped to hazard a guess. I’m guessing it’s “FIEND” based on the China = Friend thing. (Which, I still think is a stretch and something this Yankee would have never figured out before this thread.) Republican = R. So FRIEND - R = FIEND. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/22 "2021-06-28T05:02:42Z")
I still am lost on why China equals friend. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/23 "2021-06-28T06:47:34Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > I’m guessing it’s “FIEND” based on the China = Friend thing. (Which, I still think is a stretch and something this Yankee would have never figured out before this thread.) > > Republican = R. So FRIEND - R = FIEND. Correct, ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/24 "2021-06-28T06:49:56Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > I still am lost on why China equals friend. ☹ It is a very UK specific term but widely enough known here to be a valid part of the clue. “china = china plate = mate”. I’m sure there are US-specfic terms or phrases that would be equally obscure to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/25 "2021-06-29T04:52:20Z")
Do people in the UK really go around calling their friends “plate” just because it rhymes with mate? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/26 "2021-06-29T05:04:32Z")
Do people in the US really go around calling their friends “broseph” just because it rhymes with “Joseph”? (Some people do, but by no means a majority of people.) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/27 "2021-06-29T05:41:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is a very UK specific term but widely enough known here to be a valid part of the clue. “china = china plate = mate”. I’m sure there are US-specfic terms or phrases that would be equally obscure to me. I’m British and I’d never heard of it either. It’s a shame more people don’t know how to solve cryptic crossword clues. The learning curve is a bit steep, but it’s so satisfying when you work out the answer. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/28 "2021-06-29T06:06:22Z")
No, the way it works, if it’s true, they go around calling their friends “China”. And it seems to be, I found this in [Wikipedia’s list of examples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyming_slang?wprov=sfti1). Cockney rhyming slang works like this: First one thinks of a phrase that rhymes with the meaning: China plate for mate, e.g, Then one uses the part of the phrase that _doesn’t_ rhyme to carry the meaning. That’s what makes it so hard for outsiders to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/29 "2021-06-29T06:18:53Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Do people in the UK really go around calling their friends “plate” just because it rhymes with mate? Very few, but then there are plenty of clue solutions which are words of very limited or specialised usage. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/30 "2021-06-29T08:18:04Z")
This is my biggest pet peeve with crosswords: let the clue be as intricate and convoluted as you like, that’ fine - but if the solutions are (to pick some examples from recent experience) “Aibaq”, “Spados”, “Daster” “Kyangs” then this isn’t a clue-solving challenge, it’s a knowing weird words challenge. Which is also fine in itself - but super-cryptic clues to words you only see in crossword grids just don’t offer a way in. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/31 "2021-06-29T08:27:37Z")
@suranyi is exactly right about how Cockney rhyming slang works, but it’s probably also worth pointing out that it’s fading away. Most of the examples you read are pretty old and slang has moved on - people aren’t inventing new Cockney rhyming slang for modern expressions so it’s just getting dated. This is a general phenomenon in crossword-ese. Conventions which came into being because they relied on current expressions (e.g. AB for “sailor”) stick around because it suits both setters and solvers to have a known convention - and outlast the actual normal language usage by decades. Eventually a new generation of solvers gets frustrated and starts asking how the hell they were meant to an outdated Royal Navy term from before their birth and the convention fades from use. But it takes a while. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/32 "2021-06-29T12:14:53Z")
I heard the expression “ain’t half taters” once, and the person who used it said that “taters” was Cockney rhyming slang for “cold”. I asked him what the derivation was for that, but he didn’t know. I still don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/33 "2021-06-29T12:30:30Z")
“Potatoes in the mould” apparently. Never heard that as an expression. > **[Spuds is Cockney Rhyming Slang for Cold (derived from Potatoes in the Mould)!](https://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/slang/spuds)** > > Find out all about "Spuds" in Cockney Rhyming Slang in the world's biggest Cockney slang dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/34 "2021-06-29T12:34:41Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > This is my biggest pet peeve with crosswords: let the clue be as intricate and convoluted as you like, that’ fine - but if the solutions are (to pick some examples from recent experience) “Aibaq”, “Spados”, “Daster” “Kyangs” then this isn’t a clue-solving challenge, it’s a knowing weird words challenge. Which is also fine in itself - but super-cryptic clues to words you only see in crossword grids just don’t offer a way in. I agree but I wouldn’t put “china” in the same category as the novelty words you list above. Half the fun with the UK style of cryptics is the use of wordplay and it rarely relies on obscure words though it does often rely on you reading the clue in a non-standard, non-obvious or more contrived way. e.g. “eros’s mixed-up bloomers” isn’t referring to old-style voluminous knickers but rather “bloomers” points to “eros’s” being an anagram of a type of flower (bloom-ers?) hence, “roses” would be the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/35 "2021-06-29T12:53:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I agree but I wouldn’t put “china” in the same category as the novelty words you list above. > > Half the fun with the UK style of cryptics is the use of wordplay and it rarely relies on obscure words though it does often rely on you reading the clue in a non-standard, non-obvious or more contrived way. Yeah - like I say, I love that stuff. It’s when the _solutions_ are obscure words that my piss really gets boiled because it means you can’t get a handle on the wordplay. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum\_45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum_45/32/3385_2.png) [@eburacum\_45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum_45)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/36 "2021-06-29T13:06:23Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Do people in the UK really go around calling their friends “plate” just because it rhymes with mate? ‘Plates’ means ‘Feet’ in Cockney Rhyming Slang; - Plates of Meat= Feet. ‘Me poor old plates are playing up’. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum\_45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum_45/32/3385_2.png) [@eburacum\_45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum_45)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/37 "2021-06-29T13:11:03Z")
Incidentally, most of the rhyming slang in _Mary Poppins Returns_ was imaginary. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/38 "2021-06-29T13:14:44Z")
Next thing you’ll be telling me that Australians don’t call a pie a “Nazi spy”. Or a dog a “chocolate frog”. Or a prawn a “shrimp”. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/32T4H-JnRLw/maxresdefault.jpg "Toss Another Shrimp on the Barbie") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32T4H-JnRLw) (Note: song also explains that “China” = “mate”.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/39 "2021-06-29T17:58:34Z")
“Crosswordese” is generally frowned upon in American style crosswords and the fun is in the cluing and wordplay. Given the nature of the tight grid and stacks, some is inevitable, but most NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and similar puzzles are not rendered unsolvable because you don’t know crosswordese. The cross clues should be able to fill those in. I find myself stumbling most often on a name. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568/40 "2021-06-29T18:39:29Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > It’s when the _solutions_ are obscure words that my piss really gets boiled because it means you can’t get a handle on the wordplay. It’s my understanding that cryptic crosswords published in the U.S. (rare though they are) tend to be “fairer” than those published in the U.K.: they avoid obscure words or names that not everyone would be familiar with as solutions, and they are stricter about following the rules for cluing (i.e. each clue is precisely divisible into two parts, with no superfluous words in either part). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-cryptic-crossword-clue/944568.md?page=3)