# explain a miracle - religious debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335 "2013-01-07T10:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/21 "2013-01-07T16:28:37Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > And if you’re a Catholic, you believe it’s brimming with nutritious protein, since it magically turns into the body of Christ. Yes, but how much protein? It must change after you put it in your mouth or you’d notice. And even that much human flesh couldn’t be so nutritious. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/22 "2013-01-07T16:30:40Z")
Being an Atheist doesn’t mean you can explain everything, it just means you stop thinking “We don’t know, therefore Jesus” answers everything. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/23 "2013-01-07T16:36:57Z")
A lot of people can’t explain how David Copperfield performs the illusions he does. If he told us they were miracles should we believe him? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/24 "2013-01-07T16:55:05Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > And if you’re a Catholic, you believe it’s brimming with nutritious protein, since it magically turns into the body of Christ. That’s inaccurate; Catholic theology holds that the Eucharist’s physical properties are unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/25 "2013-01-07T16:58:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s inaccurate; Catholic theology holds that the Eucharist’s physical properties are unchanged. Would it be more accurate(but crude) to say that the Eucharist becomes possessed by the ghost of Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/26 "2013-01-07T17:09:13Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > And if you’re a Catholic, you believe it’s brimming with nutritious protein, since it magically turns into the body of Christ. It’s true that we Catholics believe it magically turns into the Body of Christ. But we don’t believe as a result that it’s physically nutritious, because we believe that the magical change happens only to the _substance_ of the bread, not the _species_, or physical appearance and content, of the bread. We believe that the Body of Christ is very nutritious for one’s soul, but not for one’s physical body. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/27 "2013-01-07T17:09:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would it be more accurate(but crude) to say that the Eucharist becomes possessed by the ghost of Jesus? Sort of. The substance of the Eucharist changes to the blood and flesh of Christ, but this change is not on the level of physical properties. Point being, Catholics do not believe that the wine and bread physically change to blood and flesh, and thus provide more physical nourishment than wine and bread. ETA: What Bricker said. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/28 "2013-01-07T17:11:22Z")
> [@Loreeee](#): > > but how could she live fourty days without food and drink when the medics controlled her? That doesn’t sound impossible to me. You might be surprised how long people can live with little or no food. For a time you survive on your own stored-up fat. Over time this process gets more harmful and the body gradually shuts down. Eventually you die. It has to be pretty miserable at the end but it does take time to happen. This woman was bedridden and wasn’t exerting herself, so maybe that could happen. Surviving for 13 years on only Eucharist wafers is another story. Anyway I doubt the details can be confirmed 60 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/29 "2013-01-07T17:12:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would it be more accurate(but crude) to say that the Eucharist becomes possessed by the ghost of Jesus? Maybe, but I don’t think so. It all depends on what being possessed by a ghost entails. In my understanding of the way such things are said to work, the ghost sort of floats in and takes control, a spectral hitchhiker who can also float out, leaving the original owner of the body in command again. That’s not at all what we believe happens when the bread is consecrated in the sacrifice of Mass. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/30 "2013-01-07T17:31:52Z")
I was raised Baptist, and didn’t hear about this Catholic host concept until I was an adult. Can someone explain it to me? The gospels have Jesus speaking in figurative language throughout. He teaches with parables. But when he sat down with his disciples to eat his last supper, he told them that this bread was his body, and some centuries later people decide that he meant that _literally_. Why? Why would someone not assume he’s speaking figuratively like he usually does? Especially with something that is so _obviously_ figurative? And then to accept this view, you have to come up with the most contrived explanation of _how_ - it’s so bad that it makes the Trinity thing seem straightforward in comparison. The physical properties stay the same, but the “substance” changes? What does that even mean? The only thing I can think of is path dependence. Someone long ago decided that Jesus meant what he said literally, and made that infallible dogma. Only later did anyone actually think about it, and then he (who? Augustus?) came up with that silly “accidents” BS. Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/31 "2013-01-07T18:52:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That doesn’t sound impossible to me. You might be surprised how long people can live with little or no food. For a time you survive on your own stored-up fat. Over time this process gets more harmful and the body gradually shuts down. Eventually you die. It has to be pretty miserable at the end but it does take time to happen. This woman was bedridden and wasn’t exerting herself, so maybe that could happen. Surviving for 13 years on only Eucharist wafers is another story. Anyway I doubt the details can be confirmed 60 years later. Big meh, I had an issue with what my doctors couldn’t pind down but decided was an unspecified virus and I did not eat from the beginning of October [around the 4th or so] until December 28th one year, and I lost all of about 20 pounds/9ish kilos. All I could keep down was water, chicken broth and unsweetened tea. All I could do was pretty much stay in bed and try not to vomit. \ never claimed I was a saint, though I guess I could claim I was seeing visions and get the Catholic Church to make me a saint-in-waiting, whatever that is called. [It would have been nice if they could have figured out what it was, they tested me for all sorts of stuff but never came up with a diagnosis. I would have loved to have been able to get medicated and cured.] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/32 "2013-01-07T19:26:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I think this is what Catholic snuff looks like. Ick. > This first one proves you are wrong: one of the doctors who wrote about the forty days of observation explicitly states it was “in order to investigate whether or not Alexandrina did indeed live without even minimum feeding, except the Sacred Eucharist”. Then later he says **“What I want to prove to the world is that she lives without food or drink.”** > > What kind of doctor doesn’t know that the Eucharist is food? More to the point, what kind of scientist states a desired outcome for the investigation that he is about to start? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/33 "2013-01-07T19:51:23Z")
There was an Indian Fakir who claimed to be able to survive without food or water for indefinite periods of time who submitted himself to study, and it was observed that he was absorbing water through his rectum on the toilet to not die of thirst. The answer for anyone claiming to live without water or food is that they’re finding ways to eat and drink when no one is around. Let’s flip the script: Do you also believe that people become can’t-leave-my-couch morbidly obese eating salad and fruits? If they told you they eat a healthy balanced diet, you would assume they are sneaking food they don’t mention, right? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/34 "2013-01-07T20:53:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > More to the point, what kind of scientist states a desired outcome for the investigation that he is about to start? Since when are all doctors good or even competent scientists? Especially when they start from trying to prove their hypothesis correct, not disprove it. Plus, not all doctors are necessarily smart. Remember the old joke about what you call the person who graduated last in the class in Med school? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/35 "2013-01-07T21:09:45Z")
> [@Loreeee](#): > > I’m an italian atheist and I’m searching the rational explanation of the most recents christian catholics miracles. For the most famous miracles I found a rational explanation but there is a miracle, less famous, that I didn’t find it. > The fact is the fasting of Alexandrina da Costa. I searched for hour and days but i didn’t find a person with an explanation. At many sites there is also the observation of alexandrina’s medics that confirmed the fact, if this is true. have you an alternative explanation? The explanation is that there is no such thing as a miracle. The logical explanation was that she was sneaking Twinkies on the sly, or something similar. Yes, people can live for quite a while without food as long as they have water. But 13 years of nothing but cookies? No way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/36 "2013-01-07T21:28:44Z")
Was she getting communion wine as well? Seems to me this is the kind of detail that devout Catholics might overlook, but atheists scientists should not. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/37 "2013-01-07T21:49:48Z")
> [@Loreeee](#): > > I’m an italian atheist and I’m searching the rational explanation of the most recents christian catholics miracles. For the most famous miracles I found a rational explanation but there is a miracle, less famous, that I didn’t find it. > The fact is the fasting of Alexandrina da Costa. I searched for hour and days but i didn’t find a person with an explanation. At many sites there is also the observation of alexandrina’s medics that confirmed the fact, if this is true. have you an alternative explanation? As a purported atheist (and you don’t seem to be…you should call yourself an agnostic, if anything, or a perhaps skeptical theist…maybe even take the ‘skeptical’ part out, as you seem fairly credulous on first examination) let me introduce you to a vital concept…that of [Occam’s Razor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor). > [@](#): > > Occam’s razor (also written as Ockham’s razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected. So, what seems more likely, logically…that this woman went for years without food or drink, but still lost weight such that when she died she weighed less than 80 lbs (why would she lose weight if the Holy Spirit or whatever was sustaining her?), or that she had a completely sedentary life and ate and drank minimally? Why take the miraculous route when a perfectly reasonable explanation is simply that the woman was eating a minimal diet and that the ‘doctors’ were either unaware of this (did they have her under 24 hour observation?) or that they were knowingly or unknowingly covering it up for their own reasons…or, simply that the facts have been distorted in the over half century since this happened and are being presented in an obviously biased way by the folks who created those web sites you linked to because it’s what they want to believe happened and it conforms to their own world view? An atheist would automatically discount this for a variety of reasons, and even an agnostic would be skeptical, especially when you look at the obvious bias of the people presenting the information. The Wiki link posted up thread talked about her eating only the Eucharist (which is far fetched enough, even with her minimal activity), so it’s not a stretch to think she was drinking water too (and perhaps wine…body and blood of Christ, right?), with perhaps some other things when no one was looking. Doesn’t that seem more reasonable as an explanation? If it doesn’t, then I suggest you rethink your self applied label of ‘atheist’, since it doesn’t really fit too well. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/38 "2013-01-07T22:03:50Z")
I’d never heard of this woman before, but I have to admit being somewhat creeped out by her being, I guess you’d say, a full-time sufferer. She literally did nothing all day but suffer. I assume every hunger pang and other symptom of her dietary deprivation was viewed as a sign of efficient suffery, like counting the number of widgets produced by a factory worker. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/39 "2013-01-07T22:37:36Z")
To paraphrase Dr. Evil, yeah…a little creepy. :eek: ETA: She may have been a bit confused when she joined the suffrage movement…possibly someone should have pointed out to her what that word actually meant (an Inigo Montoya moment, to mix quotes)… ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335/40 "2013-01-07T22:38:20Z")
I’d guess the answer is similar to how bed-ridden morbidly obese people can stay alive even though they can’t get out of bed to get food or water. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-a-miracle-religious-debate/646335.md?page=3)