# Explain Britain's "rigid class structure" to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952 "2009-07-14T05:07:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/21 "2009-07-16T07:55:18Z")
Here in America the only thing that I’ve ever heard indicate what class you belong to is your income. Although most people identify as middle class, even poor and rich people. As for England, a few months ago when watching Graham Norton on BBC America, clips were shown of him talking candidly about various topics and he mentioned the class structure in England and said a lot of people would make judgments about other people based on their accent (what part of England they’re from), but since he’s from Ireland he’s outside of the class system. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/22 "2009-07-16T08:52:00Z")
But if you talked liked Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel, would that not affect your chances of, say, becoming a school principal? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/23 "2009-07-16T10:00:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It shouldn’t. What makes the Middle Class the Middle Class is not precisely education but habits of mind and self-management. People from that class, even in a bad situation, tend to bounce back. Likewise, even a huge income doesn’t neccessarily make a lower-class person into a higher-class person. Much of the time, they’ll just waste their money and wind up at the bottom of the heap unless somebody else handles it for them. Witness a lot of Hollywood stars and pro athletes from lower-class backgrounds. > > There’s a difference between Europe and America on this, although it’s hardly total. In Europe, class is what you’re born with (although a few professions are almost automatically upper- or upper-middle class). In America, class is primarily who you are or choose to be by attitude. That’s [largely a myth](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05133/504149.stm). > [@](#): > > Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. remains a more mobile society than Europe, economists and sociologists say that in recent decades the typical child starting out in poverty in continental Europe (or in Canada) has had a better chance at prosperity. Miles Corak, an economist for Canada’s national statistical agency who edited a recent Cambridge University Press book on mobility in Europe and North America, tweaked dozens of studies of the U.S., Canada and European countries to make them comparable. “The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied,” he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so. > > \< snip \> > > Whatever the facts, the Franklin-inspired notion of America as an exceptionally mobile society persisted through most of the 20th century, as living standards improved after World War II and the children and grandchildren of immigrants prospered. Jeremiads in the 1960s and 1970s warned of an intractable culture of poverty that trapped people at the bottom for generations, and African-Americans didn’t enjoy the same progress as whites. But among large numbers of Americans, there was little doubt that their children would ride the escalator. > > In 1992, though, Mr. Solon, the Michigan economist, shattered the conventional academic wisdom, arguing in the American Economic Review that earlier studies relied on “error-ridden data, unrepresentative samples, or both” and misleadingly compared snapshots of a single year in the life of parent and child rather than looking over longer periods. There is “dramatically less mobility than suggested by earlier research,” he said. Subsequent research work confirmed that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/24 "2009-07-16T16:30:44Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > There’s a difference between Europe and America on this, although it’s hardly total. In Europe, class is what you’re born with (although a few professions are almost automatically upper- or upper-middle class). In America, class is primarily who you are or choose to be by attitude. It’s a subtle difference, but important one, and varies a bit by country to country. Class in, say, China is also a huge issue. Not so. No professional\* is _ever_ upper-class in Britain, unless, say, his dad is the Duke of Portland. Upper-middle, certainly. For example, my parents were doctors, and made enough money to send my brother and me to top public (private) schools, like [this one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherborne_School), and were members of the local golf course, and so on, but we were always stuck where we were, aspirationally. Richard Branson has a private island and is _still_ not upper-class. \*excluding civil servants, who automatically get honours anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/25 "2009-07-16T16:43:59Z")
We had a local GOP Congressman say $200k a year was middle class. Of course he was widely mocked about that and he lost his re-election race. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/26 "2009-07-16T16:52:51Z")
Everyone in America is middle-class except the Kennedys and the Bushes. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/27 "2009-07-16T18:17:18Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It shouldn’t. What makes the Middle Class the Middle Class is not precisely education but habits of mind and self-management. People from that class, even in a bad situation, tend to bounce back. Likewise, even a huge income doesn’t neccessarily make a lower-class person into a higher-class person. Much of the time, they’ll just waste their money and wind up at the bottom of the heap unless somebody else handles it for them. Witness a lot of Hollywood stars and pro athletes from lower-class backgrounds. > > There’s a difference between Europe and America on this, although it’s hardly total. In Europe, class is what you’re born with (although a few professions are almost automatically upper- or upper-middle class). In America, class is primarily who you are or choose to be by attitude. It’s a subtle difference, but important one, and varies a bit by country to country. Class in, say, China is also a huge issue. Nope, in England class (except upper class) is about aesthetic choices and education (which ties in to profession) more than money or anything else. Working class people are no more likely to be spendthrift than middle class people are. > [@Nobody](#): > > Here in America the only thing that I’ve ever heard indicate what class you belong to is your income. Although most people identify as middle class, even poor and rich people. > > As for England, a few months ago when watching Graham Norton on BBC America, clips were shown of him talking candidly about various topics and he mentioned the class structure in England and said a lot of people would make judgments about other people based on their accent (what part of England they’re from), but since he’s from Ireland he’s outside of the class system. I’ve heard that from a couple of Irish people before too, and it’s frankly bollocks. Anyone living in England roughly fits into the class system, no matter where they’re from originally. Accents are one way some people make assumptions about class, but they’re often wrong - there are plenty of middle class Northerners. The class system isn’t rigid, though. You can’t move into upper class, but, frankly, I don’t think many people would want to. You certainly can move between middle and working class, and I know loads of people who have, myself included. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/28 "2009-07-16T19:33:44Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > You certainly can move between middle and working class, and I know loads of people who have, myself included. Agree totally. Everyone I have ever been out with has come from a working class background but, through intelligence, education and ambition, would be defined now as middleclass. And the same goes for my father, in fact. Interestingly, my partner feels somewhat guilty for earning so much money and therefore letting down her working class routes. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/29 "2009-07-16T19:52:06Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The class system isn’t rigid, though. You can’t move into upper class, but, frankly, I don’t think many people would want to. You certainly can move between middle and working class, and I know loads of people who have, myself included. Could you marry into upper class? Or would you always be destined to be “Lord So-and-So and his working class wife”? And back on the American side, I know money is related to class but money is hardly the only thing. It’s the whole Beverly Hillbillies trope. Everyone knows someone whose money and class don’t quite match. Lottery winners are an extreme example, but it also happens when you have neighbors complaining about someone putting a car up on blocks in the front yard, or too many lawn ornaments. The car/lawn ornament owner certainly has the money to live in that neighborhood, but their actions are still firmly associated with a lower class. Food can be a big indicator of this as well. Education and income-wise, I’m middle class, but my parents came from working class homes and we continued to eat that way growing up because it never occurred to anyone to change that. I’m talking about things like casseroles with Frito topping, or serving slices of Wonder Bread as the bread and butter on the dinner table. A fancy dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/30 "2009-07-16T19:52:18Z")
I think class is how you behave. In the past it was probably education and whether you worked with hand or mind but there was always the _working-class gent_. Now, money and education appear to be creeping back to some extent that the old working class is mostly middle-class in the old way of thinking but now there’s a workless impoverished semi-criminal semi-literate underclass developing more reminiscent of Dickens than the 20th century. Their habits draw on a mixture of Jamaican and Gangsta images but they are just as likely to be white or Asian as black. ---
**Author:** ![Neverender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Neverender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neverender)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/31 "2009-07-16T21:51:55Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > The idea of having no money and still being middle class boggles me. What about the idea of being underclass or working class with a lot of money? Imagine your stereotypical trailer trash family wins the lottery. Are they instantly middle class? No, because they’re still trailer trash and that is unlikely (though not impossible) to change. It happened in the UK with [Michael Carroll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Carroll_(lottery_winner)) and his sudden funds didn’t make him an better. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/32 "2009-07-16T22:24:16Z")
With all this talk of the class structure in the UK, I’m surprised nobody has mentioned this Monty Python sketch:- Of course it’s a take-off of _Sons and Lovers_ by D.H Lawrence which was about somebody who wanted to better himself and move away from his working-class origins. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSzPGrazPo&feature=fvsr](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSzPGrazPo&feature=fvsr) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/33 "2009-07-16T22:59:36Z")
It’s spelled B-U-C-K-E-T… …No I can assure you it’s pronounced BOO-KAY 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/34 "2009-07-17T01:21:55Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > Could you marry into upper class? Or would you always be destined to be “Lord So-and-So and his working class wife”? That would largely depend on whether you speak “the right way” and know which fork to use and so on. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/35 "2009-07-17T01:47:53Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > Could you marry into upper class? Or would you always be destined to be “Lord So-and-So and his working class wife”? You might change to upper middle class (if you weren’t that already), but you wouldn’t be upper class. However, your children might be, or at least their children. In many ways the upper class have more in common with the working class than with the middle class. Aspirational middle class people might think it’s terribly improper to bet on the horses, wear clothes you’ve had for decades, save food in tupperware and let your dogs jump all over the soft furnishings, but the Queen does all of that. > [@](#): > > And back on the American side, I know money is related to class but money is hardly the only thing. It’s the whole Beverly Hillbillies trope. Everyone knows someone whose money and class don’t quite match. Lottery winners are an extreme example, but it also happens when you have neighbors complaining about someone putting a car up on blocks in the front yard, or too many lawn ornaments. The car/lawn ornament owner certainly has the money to live in that neighborhood, but their actions are still firmly associated with a lower class. > > Food can be a big indicator of this as well. Education and income-wise, I’m middle class, but my parents came from working class homes and we continued to eat that way growing up because it never occurred to anyone to change that. I’m talking about things like casseroles with Frito topping, or serving slices of Wonder Bread as the bread and butter on the dinner table. A fancy dinner. Exactly the same here. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/36 "2009-07-17T02:55:09Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > We had a local GOP Congressman say $200k a year was middle class. Of course he was widely mocked about that and he lost his re-election race. That’s true in Northern Virginia, and would be in NY or San Fransisco as well I’d think. Until last year $200,000 was barely enough to own a townhouse, much less have an actual yard. . . ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/37 "2009-07-17T03:02:08Z")
When I think of someone’s “class” it’s usually in the context of their charity work. People who come up from nothing tend not to think of themselves as responsible for helping others. Whereas those raised in good homes (of whatever income) are taught early on to make donations or use their skills to help others. I think the English call it “Noblesse Oblige”. Not quite the same thing, but close. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/38 "2009-07-17T03:06:17Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > You might change to upper middle class (if you weren’t that already), but you wouldn’t be upper class. However, your children might be, or at least their children… Kate Middleton’s family is worth millions, yet is still middle class (her mother comes from a _working class_ background). If she and Prince William marry she’ll be the first woman from outside the “upper class” to marry senior royalty (& one day be crowned queen). Diana may have been a commoner, but she was the daughter of an earl and pure upper class (ditto for the Queen Mum). ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/39 "2009-07-17T05:46:01Z")
Class in America is commonly identified with income or career, but the most generally reliable indicator of an American’s class is how they treat the waitstaff when they go out to eat. Middle class people are not generally polite, often giving orders and refusing to make conversation. Working class and upper class people will be much more friendly, but there’s a distinct difference in the sort of friendliness–the working class person will be interacting with the waiter on a personal level, whereas the upper class person is just being nice because that’s the way it’s done. These behaviors tend to be pretty consistent throughout a person’s life, regardless of how much money they make or what their job is. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952/40 "2009-07-17T06:26:06Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Class in America is commonly identified with income or career, but the most generally reliable indicator of an American’s class is how they treat the waitstaff when they go out to eat. Middle class people are not generally polite, often giving orders and refusing to make conversation. Working class and upper class people will be much more friendly, but there’s a distinct difference in the sort of friendliness–the working class person will be interacting with the waiter on a personal level, whereas the upper class person is just being nice because that’s the way it’s done. These behaviors tend to be pretty consistent throughout a person’s life, regardless of how much money they make or what their job is. :dubious: Are you a waitstaff member and have been treated badly by middle class people and so are painting us with a broad brush? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-britains-rigid-class-structure-to-me/502952.md?page=3)