# Explain construction permits to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 4, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503 "2014-02-04T18:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/21 "2014-02-05T03:14:39Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > TLDR version: Homeowner should take it upon themselves to know if a permit is required (don’t take the contractors word for it). If a potential contractor even suggests doing the work without a permit if one is required, they should walk away. While the homeowners in these two cases aren’t “in trouble” so to speak, they have both spent more money than they ought to have been. Permit costs are just a fraction of the total job costs. A legit contractor will not hesitate to “jump through the hoops”, its just part of the job. As someone mentioned upthread, if they’re willing to cut corners before the job even starts, what lies down the road? That’s what happened with our deck. Nice guy, one man shop, hires day-labor as needed. He told us no permit was needed. We looked it up and sure enough, no permit is needed. . .if the deck is less than 30" off the ground. He was dubious, but looked it up himself, and was rather shaken, as he has been installing decks for people for 20 years up to second story height, _and has never pulled a permit or had a drawing review_. I offered him the option of backing out of the job, but he agreed to go through the permitting process, which is very time-consuming for a small contractor. I asked him what the additional cost was and he told me that he considered it a teaching moment and no charge to me. While his construction design was very good, it did NOT meet code for structural support, which I think really shook him up. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/22 "2014-02-05T03:22:28Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > , _and has never pulled a permit or had a drawing review_. \ While his construction design was very good, it did NOT meet code for structural support, which I think really shook him up. Its worth noting that going through the drawing review and the inspection process is the best way to stay up to date on relevant codes. If you do something not up to code, you’ll be told to correct it, and you’ll know for next time. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/23 "2014-02-05T03:24:03Z")
> [@joemama24\_98](#): > > Contractor 1: (installing new front doors): Do you want me to quote it with a permit or without? (A permit was required). > [@bob\_2](#): > > Over here we have to get planning permission for some work, but most minor work is exempt. For example I had a new front door and no permission required;[…] I guess I’m surprised that the OP needs a permit for installing a new front door. I tried to check whether it’s required where I live (Ann Arbor), but couldn’t find out just from searching. We (well, our contractor) pulled permits when we had our basement finished, but for a new front door, i.e. door plus sidelights, that you can buy at Home Depot or Lowes, that would seem like overkill to me. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/24 "2014-02-05T03:54:21Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > I guess I’m surprised that the OP needs a permit for installing a new front door. I tried to check whether it’s required where I live (Ann Arbor), but couldn’t find out just from searching. > > We (well, our contractor) pulled permits when we had our basement finished, but for a new front door, i.e. door plus sidelights, that you can buy at Home Depot or Lowes, that would seem like overkill to me. It’s not structural, so it’s hard to believe it’s necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/25 "2014-02-05T05:06:26Z")
It would never occur to me to inquire on a door permit. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/26 "2014-02-05T05:10:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would never occur to me to inquire on a door permit. Kind of like replacing a toilet, innit? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/27 "2014-02-05T09:04:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would never occur to me to inquire on a door permit > [@Chefguy](#): > > Kind of like replacing a toilet, innit? I agree with you , but in some cities _any_ change to the exterior of the building requires a permit. Yes, it’s stupid. But where do you draw the line? --replacing the front door is okay, but how about changing it to a wider, double-door with glass panels along the sides?. Replace two small windows with one large one? Etc, etc… Besides, by making a general rule that everything always needs a permit, the municipality makes more profit on the fees… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/28 "2014-02-05T09:19:14Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > I guess I’m surprised that the OP needs a permit for installing a new front door. I tried to check whether it’s required where I live (Ann Arbor), but couldn’t find out just from searching… The way it reads to me is that the op is already having doors installed, asked that contractor and contractor #2 for bids in their extensive remodel. The remodel that would require an architect or an engineer. Doors may or may not require permits, but I’ve never had one require an architect or an engineer. Obviously this is a bigger project. Again, why anyone would hire someone who failed to mention permits, didn’t automatically put it into the bid, mealy mouthed about money and schedule when asked about it, yet this project requires an architect… Sounds like a great remodeling partner. Shouldn’t have any problems at all. You should feel really confident when your house is completely torn up, and he isn’t returning phone calls. Or you have a warranty issue But hey, you saved at least $400 and time and inconvenience. This is your house! That thing you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on! Argh! ---
**Author:** ![joemama24\_98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce7236/32.png) [@joemama24\_98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joemama24_98)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/29 "2014-02-05T11:43:20Z")
Fisha - I’m most likely not going with contractor #2 because of this issue - blows my mind that he never even mentioned it. However if he’s willing to pull the permits we may proceed - unfortunately we’re too far into this process and need to get the work completed. I did get quotes from three contractors and this was an issue with 2 of the 3 with them (the third was via Home Depot, who just quoted a relatively high price without a cost breakdown for the various components (including permits), and I’m still waiting to hear back from them regarding a line-item estimate for all the work we want done (raising a ceiling, moving a knee wall, electrical, etc). Regarding needing a permit for entry doors, its a requirement in at least 2 of the counties I have lived in here in FL. I believe it has to do with impact glass requirements for hurricanes - if you replace at least 20% of the glass (windows/doors) in your home here, it has to be impact rated, and I believe the permits are required to ensure you’re adhering to this rule. This is all great feedback - thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/30 "2014-02-05T13:46:24Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s not structural, so it’s hard to believe it’s necessary. They’re as structural as windows, and [replacement windows require a permit](http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/building/Pages/ConstructionPermits.aspx). On the one hand, you could guess that if windows require a permit, so would a door. On the other hand, if doors required a permit, the bullet should just read “replacement windows or doors”. And yeah, for the OP, I can see where they’d have hurricane-based requirements that we don’t have in Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/31 "2014-02-05T14:37:12Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > They’re as structural as windows, and [replacement windows require a permit](http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/building/Pages/ConstructionPermits.aspx). > > On the one hand, you could guess that if windows require a permit, so would a door. On the other hand, if doors required a permit, the bullet should just read “replacement windows or doors”. > > And yeah, for the OP, I can see where they’d have hurricane-based requirements that we don’t have in Michigan. Yeah, that changes things. Also, the city’s desire for fees. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/32 "2014-02-05T14:50:42Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > …When I would do work in the city, I would **always** pull permits. It just saved time and if the person had bad relations with a neighbor, it covers your six if they call the city. Out of the 50-60 jobs I did, I had a single inspector come out and check things out (he was called by a neighbor looking to stir up BS… Yup, we were doing a job that the city told us just barely required a permit. They even said, you could probably get away without one. We did have the contractor get a permit and it’s a good thing he did. One of his guys got into an argument with a neighbor about a parking spot and after that, we had inspectors coming by every day responding to complaints from that neighbor. If we didn’t have the permits it would have been a huge pain in the ass. Fun fact, that neighbor lost their house due to bankruptcy (bwahahahaha). ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/33 "2014-02-05T15:06:35Z")
All the above, plus … Don’t rely on the inspector to catch building code violations. In some jurisdictions, they’re not required to. Some years ago, a rather expensive home had to be torn down because of so many violations. The courts released the county gov’t from liability because they are only culpable for zoning violations, not building code violations. The owner was wise enough to have check the contractor’s insurance and bond, so all the damage was paid for by the insurance company, including court costs and lawyers. The lesson here is to check LIABILITY INSURANCE and PERFORMANCE BOND, and if required GOV’T LICENSING. Ask for these up front, and if the contractor hedges, dump them, you never want to risk your home. ---
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/34 "2014-02-05T15:59:40Z")
I think it is very much in the home owner’s interest, one of the reasons for permits is to make sure work is done to properly and to code. I constantly see work done improperly and not to code, often by someone who the client trusted and thought was doing great work. It can slow things down by a few weeks and for really small items can be ridiculous, but for any real change to the house, why wouldn’t you? Much of this stuff may result in things that are really just inconvenient - creaky floors, cracked walls and ceilings, plumbing that drains poorly, doors and windows that don’t close properly. Bad electrical or gas fitting can result in fire. Bad carpentry can result in unsafe railings, stairs, obstacles, moisture problems, poor fire resistance and when dealing with ranges and fireplaces genuine fire. You don’t usually have to permit kitchen renos here if there is no electrical, plumbing or walls moved, but it still isn’t a bad idea. A couple weeks ago I rebuilt a kitchen that had had a fridge gable right up against the range. Insane. After the fire, insurance paid to replace the upper cabinets but not the lowers, which where undamaged by the fire. The bases were all broken from regular use because the installer had put the legs on incorrectly. They have alignment tabs which he would have had to purposely break off to install incorrectly, but he still managed. No inspector would have caught that, but they sure would have made him tear out that fridge gable. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/35 "2014-02-05T18:08:03Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > They’re as structural as windows, and [replacement windows require a permit](http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/building/Pages/ConstructionPermits.aspx). > > On the one hand, you could guess that if windows require a permit, so would a door. On the other hand, if doors required a permit, the bullet should just read “replacement windows or doors”. That may be true in Ann Arbor, but it’s not true everywhere. We had 3 windows replace 5 years ago, and per the city, as long as the size or location of the opening wasn’t changed, no permit was required. From the city’s FAQ > [@](#): > > Q: Do I need to get a permit to replace existing doors > and windows? > A: If you are replacing them in the exact size opening that > currently exists, no. If any modifications to the existing > framed opening is required, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/36 "2014-02-05T19:21:43Z")
Permit requirements vary considerably from region to region, and can often appear to be arbitrary and illogical. If your local government is lax about enforcement and the permit cost is high, you might consider doing without. But you’d be taking a considerable risk. If your house is sold, title companies may find out that some construction was done without permits. Title companies have absolutely no mercy or leeway and will not negotiate or accept excuses. They will give you the option of rectifying it _before sale_ by whatever legal means and whatever it costs (you pay), or doing without title insurance. Since no sane buyer will buy property without title insurance, and no bank will finance it, your property is non-salable unless you find a buyer who (1) pays cash, (2) intends to immediately raze the entire thing, and (3) the law allows him to purchase it under those conditions. It’s a lot of risk to take. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/37 "2014-02-05T20:30:38Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > From the city’s FAQ > [@](#): > > Q: Do I need to get a permit to replace existing doors > and windows? > A: If you are replacing them in the exact size opening that > currently exists, no. If any modifications to the existing > framed opening is required, yes. Now this makes sense to me. A larger window requires a longer header, moving one or both of the king studs, and perhaps adding cripples to maintain the external load-bearing wall’s stability. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/38 "2014-02-05T20:45:00Z")
Since this involves legal advice, let’s move it to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Parenchyma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Parenchyma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parenchyma)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503/39 "2014-02-05T22:08:17Z")
I am only cherry-picking small jobs as a sideline now, but I definitely get a permit if required, usually asking the building department specifically. I did a bathroom that was mostly replacing finishes, nothing structural (and the plumber got his own permit). The building department wanted a permit because they required me to replace the lower sash of the double-hung window in the shower with tempered glass. So I did. It is never worth pissing off inspectors; they have a lot of power. The other big thing lately is doing any job involving lead-based paint. Especially doors and windows. Working on a pre-1978 building, the contractor has to be certified for lead safety and do a lot of documenting about informing the homeowner. Then following specific safe practices during the work. EPA has levied some big fines to small contractors for not doing this. Having a permit means your contractor should be following the lead regulations. A homeowner wouldn’t get in trouble for not doing this (except for the whole exposure-to-lead thing), but a landlord could. So far I have also avoided taking jobs that invoke the lead laws, though I did go through the certification. Most houses here are pre-1978, so that means no demolition, no disturbing painted areas more than 6 square feet per room, no windows. I just haven’t wanted to spend the hundreds of dollars on a HEPA vacuum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-construction-permits-to-me/680503.md?page=1)