# Explain English geography to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 12, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668 "2022-01-12T23:14:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/21 "2022-01-13T11:28:53Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > When I watch TV set in the UK, they often refer to English place names like Sussex, Northumberland, Cornwall, Yorkshire … and I realized that I really don’t have any idea what those names represent. > > Are they geopolitical entities – analogous to, say, Massachusetts or Georgia in the US – with executive or legislative bodies? This has been answered, I think (basically, the answer is yes), although some of these counties have been subdivided into smaller legislative bodies over the years, Yorkshire being a prime example. Culturally, some counties carry a significant chunk of regional pride for the residents, much as you might find with people from, say, Texas. People from Lancashire and Yorkshire are fierce rivals, a rivalry which dates back to the medieval Wars of the Roses. Also Cornwall and Devon have great arguments about how to serve a scone with clotted cream. For that matter, many people in Cornwall don’t regard themselves as English and demand independence, thanks to their Celtic roots and distinct (albeit little spoken) language. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/22 "2022-01-13T11:35:13Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Today I learned the _V for Vendetta_ mask is supposed to be the well-known (?) visage of Guy Fawkes. I plead “American” to explain my ignorance. > > [Who was Guy Fawkes, the man behind the mask? | National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/2018/11/who-was-guy-fawkes-man-behind-mask) It’s certainly well known to British observers. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/23 "2022-01-13T11:51:13Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > True now, and for many Duchies, but some do still have ties to the places they come from - eg Duke of Cornwall (one of Prince Charles’ many titles) comes with a lot of land in Cornwall, and the Duke of Westminster owns great chunks of Westminster, the wealthiest borough in London, which in turn makes him the wealthiest aristocrat around. But [most of the lands of the duchy of Cornwall are not in Cornwall](https://whoownsengland.org/2017/03/15/what-land-does-the-duchy-of-cornwall-own/). Also, what the Westminster dukedom is actually an example of is the fact that in modern times those given peerage titles have some say over the place name used and most prefer to pick somewhere with which they have some existing connection. For the 1st Duke of Westminster, that connection was that he already owned vast chunks of Westminster. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/24 "2022-01-13T11:51:53Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > People from Lancashire and Yorkshire are fierce rivals, a rivalry which dates back to the medieval Wars of the Roses. It’s a bit more complicated than that; York (the county town of Yorkshire) was the base for the Lancastrian forces during the build up to the Battle of Towton, the largest battle in the Wars of the Roses. This was largely due to the influence of the Percy Family, who generally favoured the Lancaster cause. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/25 "2022-01-13T11:52:14Z")
If you’re looking for an “official” image, the Robin Hood statue at Nottingham castle probably fits the bill, although it’s not as well recognised as the Errol Flynn character. > **[Nottingham's famous Robin Hood statue has been damaged](https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/nottinghams-famous-robin-hood-statue-1808441)** > > "He is our most famous celebrity and should be better treated than this." ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/26 "2022-01-13T11:55:15Z")
True, but I was countering the idea that Duchies no longer have any relationship with the place they are named for - true for some (eg Cambridge, Sussex), not so true for others (eg Cornwall, Westminster). ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/27 "2022-01-13T11:58:20Z")
But the concept of Lancashire and Yorkshire being fierce rivals - which they are, trust me, I dated a Lancashire lass, never heard the end of it - does have strong links to Lancastrians and Yorkists going at each other - it has left a seed in the minds of the locals. It’s all still Game of Thrones up there. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/28 "2022-01-13T12:22:20Z")
Most of the support for the House of York was in the south of England, London and the major coastal cities, while most of the support for the House of Lancaster was in the north of England (including Yorkshire) and Wales. The idea that Yorkshire was associated with the House of York is a myth that dates from the 19th and 20th centuries. > **[The White Rose of York: History of York](http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/themes/victorian/the-white-rose-of-york)** > > insert description here > There were few ‘Yorkists’ in York. In fact, major Yorkshire land-owners were prominent supporters of the House of Lancaster. > > It seems to have been the romantic Victorians who really forged the link between York and the white rose symbol. > Still more surprising is that the association of the white rose with the wider county of Yorkshire appears to be a mainly 20th century phenomenon. Yorkshire’s older towns, such as Leeds and Hull, don’t use a rose in their arms but almost all Yorkshire civic arms registered in the last century feature it strongly. The Yorkshire flag with the heraldic rose dates from the late 1960’s and ‘White Rose Day’ was first celebrated in 1975. I’m sure you’re right about the rivalries between the counties today, but it certainly doesn’t go back to the Wars of the Roses. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/29 "2022-01-13T12:22:35Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think in the US that identification is stronger the more rural, and the more in the past, Same in England. In England, the people in a rural town will need to know where the seat of their county is, what town has the administration. But city areas will carve out bits of the surrounding county to make buroughs or districts with their own council “town hall”, Mayor and so on. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/30 "2022-01-13T12:34:07Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’m sure you’re right about the rivalries between the counties today, but it certainly doesn’t go back to the Wars of the Roses. Fair enough, I dare you to break it to the locals though. I’m not brave enough. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/31 "2022-01-13T12:35:51Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Does anyone actually use the word “county” in conjunction with the place name? As in, “I was born in Yorkshire county but then moved Essex County”? The OP is about England but I’ll just mention the situation in Ireland and Scotland, while also addressing the other recent question about shires. I think all Irish counties can be described as eg “County Galway” or “County Antrim”. The ones in the Republic still function as the main unit of local government, whereas the ones in Northern Ireland retain cultural prominence but are not longer used for local government. As far as I know “shire” is never used on its own or as part of the name of any Irish county. In Scotland, you never refer to eg “County Argyll” or “County Angus”. Several Scottish counties have “shire” as part of the name, though not as many as in the past, particularly after the Lothians went from eg “Haddingtonshire” to “East Lothian”. The extent to which Scottish counties exist as local authority units is complicated, but the word “county” is never used in that context now. I don’t think “shire” is used on its own in Scotland, though the sheriff remains more important than elsewhere, as a significant level of judge in the civil and criminal systems. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/32 "2022-01-13T16:01:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Most Americans don’t really identify with our counties (we’re more likely to identify either with our state, or with the closest major city). > [@jsc1953](#): > > I think in the US that identification is stronger the more rural, and the more in the past, you go I’m American and live in a rural county that is strongly red in a state that is strongly blue. Speaking to somebody overseas I might identify United States, then my Mid-Atlantic region (though that’s a bit informal), then my state (which I doubt people overseas could picture on a map). There’s little reason to mention county to people overseas. Speaking to people I work with in person I’d identify county first, as there’s more social identity (including political) on that level than city or state, and most of us live in the same three counties and the same three states. My office – when I went to it – was only a couple miles from a 3 state intersection. I rarely name my town, as I don’t live inside it really, it’s just an identifier in my mailing address. But I almost never just give the name of my county. I say “such-and-such county”. I think in the US we customarily only give states and cities without including the generic term (unless there are states and cities with the same name). By the way, the US isn’t entirely divided into counties. Baltimore, the closest big city to me, is not in a county. Such cities are called “independent cities”. ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/33 "2022-01-13T17:05:52Z")
Just wanted to add that the English counties of West Sussex and Essex are named for the original inhabitants: “south Saxons” and “east Saxons.” There was a historical geopolitical area called Wessex–the west Saxons–but that comprises multiple counties now. And of course there is the rural county of Norfolk, easily recognized as “northern folk.” It is in the area of East Anglia, which also belies its former inhabitants. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/34 "2022-01-13T17:15:07Z")
Same thing with “The City and County of San Francisco”. Its Board of Supervisors exercises all the powers which in most places are divided between city council and county board. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/35 "2022-01-13T17:24:57Z")
As it is in everything else, my urban city is an outlier. In talking to people outside my state , I will usually give the name of my city. In state, I will normally give my county and within the county, I will typically give my neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/36 "2022-01-13T19:49:25Z")
Some states have boroughs (Alaska?) or parishes (Louisiana) instead of counties. New York City is divided into 5 boroughs which are coincident with their own counties: Borough / County Manhattan / New York County Brooklyn / Kings County Queens / Queens County Bronx / Bronx County Staten Island / Richmond County ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/37 "2022-01-13T20:23:38Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > I think all Irish counties can be described as eg “County Galway” or “County Antrim”. The ones in the Republic still function as the main unit of local government, whereas the ones in Northern Ireland retain cultural prominence but are not longer used for local government. As far as I know “shire” is never used on its own or as part of the name of any Irish county. Correct on all counts. Also worth emphasising that we use the form “County X” and not “X County”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/38 "2022-01-13T21:32:41Z")
There is a subtle difference. San Francisco is in a county, the county of San Francisco. Baltimore, Richmond, and various others are independent cities. They are not part of any county. This is especially common in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/39 "2022-01-13T21:37:49Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Also worth emphasising that we use the form “County X” and not “X County”. In England, we always call County Durham by that name, to distinguish it from the town of Durham at its centre. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/40 "2022-01-13T21:47:50Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > In England, we always call County Durham by that name, to distinguish it from the town of Durham at its centre. Does it also have something to do with the special authority the Normans gave to the Prince Bishop of Durham, and calling the lands he governed the Palatinate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668.md?page=3)