# Explain English geography to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 12, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668 "2022-01-12T23:14:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/101 "2022-01-16T20:23:59Z")
FWIW, the numbers are the opposite way round: > **[National%20Identity%20in%20Northern%20Ireland.pdf](https://www.ninis2.nisra.gov.uk/public/census2011analysis/nationalidentity/National%20Identity%20in%20Northern%20Ireland.pdf)** > > 464.67 KB [quote]Of the usually resident population, 40 per cent described their national identity as British only, 25 per cent identified as Irish only, 21 per cent as Northern Irish only, and 14 per cent as other identities, including combinations of the above.[/quote] And it still isn’t relevant, because it’s still not correct to say that one of the constituent parts of the UK is Ireland. It’s not semantics, it’s kind of a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/102 "2022-01-16T20:28:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have read more than a bit about the history of Ireland. When I say history of Ireland, I don’t mean recent history, like 19th or 20th century. If you don’t understand what happened in Ireland in the 17th century, and even earlier, then it’s not really possible to understand anything about Ireland today. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/103 "2022-01-16T20:34:11Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > When I say history of Ireland, I don’t mean recent history, like 19th or 20th century. > > If you don’t understand what happened in Ireland in the 17th century, and even earlier, then it’s not really possible to understand anything about Ireland today. I’m not sure what you’re thinking I have not read about, and what the relationship is to what I said. If there’s something about Irish history that is critical to this matter that you think I don’t know then please, offer it. But I assure you that I probably have read something about it. The idea of nationalities or nations as we currently understand it doesn’t really go back more than a few centuries anyway. What I tried to emphasize in my original post on this point (more than once) is that “nation” or “nationality” _as I used it and specifically defined it_ means something different than “state” or “political entity” or “geographic entity” or “nation-state.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/104 "2022-01-16T21:09:27Z")
It would be factually incorrect to state that “Ireland is one of the parts of the UK”. It is, however, factually correct to state that “part of Ireland is one of the parts of the UK”. And if you ask citizens of the UK what their nationality is, a large number will say that their nationality is “Irish”, just as a large number will likewise say that their nationality is “Scottish”, or “Welsh”, or “English”, so “Irish” is a component nationality of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/105 "2022-01-16T21:11:58Z")
Indeed. After Brexit, quite a few people have rediscovered their Irish roots and applied for Irish nationality, or dual nationality, in case Boris’ experiment goes belly-up. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/106 "2022-01-16T21:44:17Z")
I should have posted this earlier, as a cite. > **[Brexit vote sparked surge in Irish passports issued in Great Britain](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/brexit-vote-sparked-surge-in-irish-passports-issued-in-great-britain)** > > Figures show more than 420,000 applications were made from 2016-2020 ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/107 "2022-01-17T05:53:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What I tried to emphasize in my original post on this point (more than once) is that “nation” or “nationality” _as I used it and specifically defined it_ means something different than “state” or “political entity” or “geographic entity” or “nation-state.” _‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said…_ You defined it as > [@Acsenray](#): > > This meaning of “nation”—meaning a group of people with a common nationality or ethnic identity—is usually contrasted with “state,” meaning a political entity. Are you really saying that Republicans and Unionists have a common ethnic identity?   > **[Plantations of Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland)** > > Plantations in 16th- and 17th-century Ireland involved the confiscation of Irish-owned land by the English Crown and the colonisation of this land with settlers from Great Britain. The Crown saw the plantations as a means of controlling, anglicising and 'civilising' Gaelic Ireland. The main plantations took place from the 1550s to the 1620s, the biggest of which was the plantation of Ulster. The plantations led to the founding of many towns, massive demographic, cultural and economic changes, ... The native Irish were of Celtic ethnicity, Irish-speaking, and Catholic. The settlers were lowland Scots and English, of predominantly Saxon ethnicity, English-speaking, and Protestant. > The present-day partition of Ireland into the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland can be seen to have descended directly from the settlement patterns of the Plantations of the 17th century and colonisation. … > > The Plantations also had a major cultural influence. Gaelic Irish culture was decimated by the introduction of harsh measures for its use and English forcibly replaced Irish as the official language of power and business. … ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/108 "2022-01-17T07:42:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yorkshire is currently the (historic) county that has a strong notion of identity. People from Yorkshire tend to identify themselves as such. But if anyone were to suggest merging its local governments into a single county council… ? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/109 "2022-01-17T13:11:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The UK is a country composed of three entire nations and a portion of a fourth. Interestingly the [UK governmen](https://members.parliament.uk/region)t describes the UK as a country of four countries. When you dig around government legislation, they seem to use the terms nation and country interchangeably to refer to our four constituent bits. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/110 "2022-01-17T14:17:12Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The native Irish were of Celtic ethnicity, Irish-speaking, and Catholic. The settlers were lowland Scots and English, of predominantly Saxon ethnicity, English-speaking, and Protestant. They don’t consider themselves Scots and English now. They do indeed consider themselves Irish. National identity can change a lot in only a few generations, even one generation. In terms of nationality Republicans and Unionists are all indeed Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/111 "2022-01-17T14:20:09Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said… You understand it’s not a novel use of the word, right? “Nation” and “state” are historically contrasted. Hence the reason that “nation-state” has a meaning at all. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/112 "2022-01-17T14:39:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They don’t consider themselves Scots and English now. They do indeed consider themselves Irish. National identity can change a lot in only a few generations, even one generation. In terms of nationality Republicans and Unionists are all indeed Irish. I really don’t think so. Any cites to back this up? Here’s a good essay on the subject: > **[Unionist Identity in Ireland - Shared Ireland](https://sharedireland.com/unionist-identity-in-ireland/)** > > It is also worth noting that if Irish Unity does come to pass it will not mean “Brits Out” but will mean a huge number of Northern Brits in. Also see > **[People of Northern Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Northern_Ireland)** > > The people of Northern Ireland or Northern Irish people are all people born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence, under the Belfast Agreement. Under the agreement, people of Northern Ireland have the right to identify either as Irish or British, or both. > Most Northern Irish people either identify as N... In the 2011 census in NI people stated their identity as: British 44% Northern Irish 27% Irish 26% English, Scottish, or Welsh 1% Other 3% Note the distinction between Northern Irish and Irish, and that only 26% consider themselves Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/113 "2022-01-17T14:55:02Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > But if anyone were to suggest merging its local governments into a single county council… > ? As mentioned in the Map Men video there are indeed Yorkshire people who dislike the division of Yorkshire into smaller units. There’s even a (apparently very small) movement who want all the local government reforms scrapped and the historical counties re-established— [https://britishcounties.org/](https://britishcounties.org/) ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/114 "2022-01-17T15:11:10Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > In the 2011 census in NI people stated their identity as: > > British 44% > Northern Irish 27% > Irish 26% > English, Scottish, or Welsh 1% > Other 3% > > Note the distinction between Northern Irish and Irish, and that only 26% consider themselves Irish. I think we can all hopefully agree that identity in Northern Ireland is very complex, and can also be different depending on circumstance – someone might call themselves ‘Irish’ during the [rugby six nations](https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/), Northern Irish during the football and British at other times. But just saying everyone in NI is ‘Irish’ is ignoring a highly complex political, cultural and social situation that won’t win many arguments - or friends - depending on who you’re talking to. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/115 "2022-01-17T15:13:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > As mentioned in the Map Men video there are indeed Yorkshire people who dislike the division of Yorkshire into smaller units. Anyone who’s a fan of Game of Thrones and wants a little more insight into the northern pride of Yorkshire might like this ad for [Yorkshire Tea](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cipMoGKXGE), starring one of Yorkshire’s favourite sons. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/116 "2022-01-17T15:16:11Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Generally, if a county and one of its cities have the same name, and one simply names the place without specifying County or City, the city is assumed. Thus for example, any mention of Los Angeles or Fresno will be assumed to mean the city, not the county. If you mean the county, you need to say it. I disagree about Los Angeles. For most people in SoCal, saying “Los Angeles” means the county or the greater metropolitan area. People will say “the City of Los Angeles” when they mean the city specifically. This is due to the big mess of neighborhoods of the city and independent suburbs that are interwoven throughout the county. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/117 "2022-01-17T16:17:06Z")
The Map Men video made a passing reference to the 6 (…or what is 9? Haven’t gone back to confirm) English “regions”. What are those? ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/118 "2022-01-17T16:21:06Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > All Sussex is relevant here, the division into East and West Sussex came much later. And Suffolk is obviously related to Norfolfk. It’s funny how no one ever mentions the small county of Weefolk. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/119 "2022-01-17T16:35:09Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > The Map Men video made a passing reference to the 6 (…or what is 9? Haven’t gone back to confirm) English “regions”. What are those? You’re right, I’ve just rewatched it (it’s 9). They just seem to be loose groupings of several counties each, and Brits will recognise some of their descriptions (South West, South East, East Midlands, North West etc). They don’t have any legislative authority so I’m not really sure of their purpose, except as a useful way for the BBC to carve up its nightly regional TV news. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668/120 "2022-01-17T17:45:15Z")
A lot of government statistics include regional analysis, so there’s some consistent definition of them (though it might not be the same as the BBC’s or anyone else’s). There was for a time an attempt to move some central government functions nearer to the different English regions by having different ministries co-locating relevant staff into the “Government Office for [wherever]”, with a view to exploring possible devolution to regional assemblies, but a referendum in the north east scuppered the latter idea (and the “austerity” government of 2010 closed the regional offices down, IIRC). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-english-geography-to-me/957668.md?page=7)