# Explain fantasy literary terminology to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722 "2011-02-17T17:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/1 "2011-02-17T17:49:10Z")
So I’ve been reading fantasy novels my whole life, although generally restricted to a few authors. Off the top of my head, those are Raymond Feist (my favorite), Bob Salvatore, Tolkien and Robin Hobb. I’ve never played D&D, but I’ve played D&D based PC games (Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, etc.) so I kind of get that. In the Joel Armstrong thread, a few people said things that went wayyyy over my head. **Miller** referenced “dark, high fantasy”. **E of A** mentioned “Swords & Horses”. What _are_ those things? What other genres are there? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/2 "2011-02-17T17:55:36Z")
Here’s a site to start with. [Fantasy Subgenres](http://www.cuebon.com/ewriters/Fsubgenres.html). ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/3 "2011-02-17T17:59:45Z")
[Dark fantasy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasy) is more gothic. Vampires, Cthulu… that sort of stuff. It has a definite “horror” quality to it. [High Fantasy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy) is fantasy set in an internally consistent parallel universe like Middle Earth or the Forgotten Realms. “Swords and horses” I’ve never heard of, but it’s probably referring to standard “Swords and Sorcery” fare, minus all the sorcery. As far as other subgenres, [there are several](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_subgenres). Probably too many. Much like with music, it’s always seemed to me that subgenres are created to delineate between things that don’t really need delineation just to say they’re “new” or “different”. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/4 "2011-02-17T18:52:21Z")
The term “high fantasy” is tricky to pin down, because it’s used to refer to (at least) two different things that are often – but not always – found in the same stories: 1. A “fantasy world” setting, as opposed to a version of the real world that contains magical elements 2. An epic struggle against the forces of evil The contrasting term “low fantasy” is not as common as “high fantasy”, partially because it sounds derogatory even when it isn’t intended to be, and partially because it’s even less rigidly defined. Depending on context it could be intended as a neutral description of either a fantasy novel set in the “real world”\* or a fantasy novel that doesn’t deal with epic themes…or it could be used dismissively to describe a fantasy novel that’s considered “low-brow”, especially one that uses a lot of silly humor. \*The term “urban fantasy” has been used to describe stories set in cities in a version of the real world that includes magical elements. I remember this as being a pretty popular subgenre in the '90s. However, it’s my impression that within the past decade or so this term has come to be used more narrowly to refer to romances in which some of the characters are vampires, werewolves, witches, etc. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/5 "2011-02-17T18:57:16Z")
> [@](#): > > “Swords & Horses” Haven’t heard this before, but it sounds like it refers to Mercedes Lackey’s stuff: > [@](#): > > White horses that are more than what they seem. Occult detectives and vampires solving supernatural crimes in our world. Rebellious bards fight for freedom in an oppressive society. These are a few of the Fantasy worlds of Mercedes Lackey. She is a popular author with a lot of talent. Her works are full of memorable characters, intriguing plots and thoughtful themes. Whether on her own or collaborating with other authors, Ms. Lackey provides readers with pleasurable reading experiences. > > Most of Ms. Lackey’s books take place in her world of Valdemar. The “Heralds of Valdemar” series spans different periods of history of her world. Heralds are people with magic or psychic powers that are chosen by Companions. The Companions are intelligent white horses that bond with their Herald for life. The Heralds act as diplomats, judges and advisors for the kingdom of Valdemar. Along the way, various Heralds encounter fascinating cultures and other intelligent creatures. The first three books are about the queen’s Herald Talia. They are Arrows of the Queen, Arrow’s Flight and Arrow’s Fall. (A list of other Valdemar titles are at the end of this article.) [http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/fantasy\_worlds/27323](http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/fantasy_worlds/27323) ---
**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/6 "2011-02-17T19:33:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … **E of A** mentioned “Swords & Horses”. I may have made that up. It’s just what I call fantasy in a medieval setting, where people are riding horses and swinging swords. “Sword & Sorcery” would fit, too, although I prefer my fantasy light on sorcery - like Abercrombie’s work, or George R. R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire series. “Sword and Sorcery” always makes me think of Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover books,. ---
**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/7 "2011-02-17T19:40:50Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > \*The term “urban fantasy” has been used to describe stories set in cities in a version of the real world that includes magical elements. I remember this as being a pretty popular subgenre in the '90s. However, it’s my impression that within the past decade or so this term has come to be used more narrowly to refer to romances in which some of the characters are vampires, werewolves, witches, etc. I don’t think urban fantasy is limited to romances. I’d call Jim Butcher’s Harry Dresden books urban fantasy. Also Mike Carey’s novels, and some of Tanya Huff’s novels. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/8 "2011-02-17T19:44:32Z")
I was under the impression that “low fantasy” was a story set in a different world with primitive technology, but not so much magic as such. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/9 "2011-02-17T20:08:10Z")
> [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](#): > > I may have made that up. It’s just what I call fantasy in a medieval setting, where people are riding horses and swinging swords. “Sword & Sorcery” would fit, too, although I prefer my fantasy light on sorcery - like Abercrombie’s work, or George R. R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire series. > > “Sword and Sorcery” always makes me think of Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover books,. Sword & Sorcery makes me think of [Fritz Leiber](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_sorcery)–because he probably invented the phrase. (Not the genre, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/10 "2011-02-17T20:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > The contrasting term “low fantasy” is not as common as “high fantasy”, partially because it sounds derogatory even when it isn’t intended to be, and partially because it’s even less rigidly defined. Depending on context it could be intended as a neutral description of either a fantasy novel set in the “real world”\* or a fantasy novel that doesn’t deal with epic themes…or it could be used dismissively to describe a fantasy novel that’s considered “low-brow”, especially one that uses a lot of silly humor. And of course that leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. _Order of the Stick_, for instance, is an epic struggle versus evil in a complete world not our own, but it’s also full of low-brow silly humor. Or then there’s Discworld, which usually doesn’t have the epic struggle, either. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/11 "2011-02-17T21:48:01Z")
> [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](#): > > I don’t think urban fantasy is limited to romances. I’d call Jim Butcher’s Harry Dresden books urban fantasy. Also Mike Carey’s novels, and some of Tanya Huff’s novels. Agreed. And Charles deLint is virtually synonymous with urban fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/12 "2011-02-17T22:25:19Z")
> [@soulmurk](#): > > [High Fantasy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy) is fantasy set in an internally consistent parallel universe like Middle Earth or the Forgotten Realms. I think the [TVTropes page on High Fantasy](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighFantasy) does a better job of explaining the subgenre as I understand it than Wikipedia does. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/13 "2011-02-17T23:26:41Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > \*The term “urban fantasy” has been used to describe stories set in cities in a version of the real world that includes magical elements. I remember this as being a pretty popular subgenre in the '90s. However, it’s my impression that within the past decade or so this term has come to be used more narrowly to refer to romances in which some of the characters are vampires, werewolves, witches, etc. I just think that the Urban Fantasy niche has been swamped with the romances, which I believe are sometimes called “vampire shaggers”. De Lint’s stuff, and the Dresden Files, are still considered Urban Fantasy–they are just outnumbered (right now). I disagree with the people defining “high fantasy” as “a big story set in a secondary world with a long history, with maps.” I say it is that, but also includes “a struggle between Good and Evil.” “Dark Fantasy” I would use to describe stories that are “struggles between Evil and Eviller” (like the aforementioned Abercrombie). “Light Fantasy” is deliberately and primarily humorous, and so includes Order of the Stick and Discworld (Discworld, of course, is also Guilty of Literature, and so is not “just” humorous. Now that I think of it, so is OotS). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/14 "2011-02-17T23:34:01Z")
> [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](#): > > I don’t think urban fantasy is limited to romances. I’d call Jim Butcher’s Harry Dresden books urban fantasy. Also Mike Carey’s novels, and some of Tanya Huff’s novels. It’s not limited to romances, but boy howdy are the romances prevalent. And frankly, fangbanging is just icky. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/15 "2011-02-17T23:51:46Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Sword & Sorcery makes me think of [Fritz Leiber](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_sorcery)–because he probably invented the phrase. (Not the genre, of course.) The other main root of “Sword and Sorcery” was Howard’s Conan the Barbarian books. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/16 "2011-02-18T00:35:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And of course that leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. _Order of the Stick_, for instance, is an epic struggle versus evil in a complete world not our own, but it’s also full of low-brow silly humor. Or then there’s Discworld, which usually doesn’t have the epic struggle, either. The Discworld series is a good example of how muddy the high/low fantasy distinction can be – it’s very explicitly set in a different, magic-based world, but the heroes are only occasionally Saving The World From Evil. Saving This Community From A Bad Ruler comes up a lot more often, as well as other local-level problems. And there is of course plenty of humor! Conversely, the [Wikipedia article on high fantasy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy) uses the _Harry Potter_ series as an example despite the fact that the series takes place in a version of the real world that includes magic. The Wiki article claims that since Hogwarts “is physically separated from the real world” it “is therefore as much of an alternative world as C. S. Lewis’ Narnia, which means that both series are in the high fantasy subgenre”, but this reaaaaaally seems like a reach to me. _Harry Potter_ is high fantasy in the sense that it does eventually come down to a struggle in which Harry & Friends must Save The World From Evil, though. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/17 "2011-02-18T00:49:18Z")
I wouldn’t consider Harry Potter high fantasy. To me, high fantasy has a specific tone. It’s… high-minded, for lack of a better term. It’s concerned with big stories in a big way, with grandeur and a general lack of booger jokes. 😃 High fantasy takes itself very seriously. I say that even though I’m a big fan of the subgenre. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-fantasy-literary-terminology-to-me/571722/18 "2011-02-18T01:00:55Z")
I’d say the classic High Fantasy is _The Lord of the Rings_ (and all its related text.) Massive internally consistent world, maps, invented languages, epic struggles, the whole nine yards. And, of course, you always have problems with the boundary between fantasy and science fiction. And where would you fit in rational fantasy, like Niven’s _The Magic Goes Away_?