Explain fascism please.

And it continues:

In other words, not socialism anymore.

And of course you miss point 5:

BTW the strict regulation and control still meant that the big capitalist industrialists got many good deals from the fascists. Mentioned already were the elimination of unions and the availability of slave labor.

And before you continue, it is not climate change that is my pet item, it is history. :smiley:

So, it seems that Quarz and **smiling bandit **also needs a refresher of what they do teach in Europe:

The Encyclopedia Britannica mentions that Fascism is a:

While there is discussion and the modern position is to move away from a generic definition of fascism, it is really ridiculous to say that it was also a leftist idea or a socialistic one.

In my simple and overly generic terms:

Fascism is the preference of the nation (in some idealized from, usually including a shit load of xenophobia in its broadest sense) over anything else, but with a fairly clear preference for capitalism/big business and strong leaders all round (and explicitly working from the top down). In simpler terms: nation/race/us vs other nations/foreigners/them.

Communism is the preference of the “worker” (in some idealized form, usually including a shit load of paranoia against businessmen & intellectuals) over the other classes. Communism as an ideology is explicitly international. Nations are irrelevant. In simpler terms: it’s the working class, everywhere vs everybody else, everywhere, until all everybody’s “equal”.

Now in practice there may not be that much difference, but the ideology is clearly very different.

And North Korea is a Democratic Republic . . .

Errmm . . . That’s still racism, Quartz. Just a bit more convoluted than the simple all-darkskins-are-inferior sort. Nazi racial theory was partly influenced by Theosophy, believe it or not. See this documentary on YouTube.

An excellent source on fascism in general is Fascism: A History, by Roger Eatwell. Here’s a fascinating review of it.

As viewed by George Orwell in 1941:

As for the name “Fascism”, take a look here. It’s quite interesting, and possibly enlightening.

And you’ll see fasces in the chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives, flanking Old Glory and the POTUS whenever he gives his State of the Union address. Of course, they were there long before Mussolini was born.

Which facts are you talking about?

People are acting like its all easily categorized.

I think fascism is populist, not communist. It is a very virulent, very right wing form of populism.

Nazism wasn’t capitalist or communist. It had a command economy but it wasn’t a command economy in a “from each according to his ability and to each according to his need” sort of way, it was a “do what I tell you or I will kill you and replace you with someone who will do what I tell them”

People are confusing socialism and totalitarianism in the same way that some people people confuse capitalism and democracy.

for the win

Yes, I agree, it is a malignant form of populism.

Because you are clearly talking nonsense about it.

And yes, I have been to college too, and been taught both by avowed Marxists and people who were clearly quite conservative.

Anyway, how about replying to the substance of my post, if you think I’m wrong, instead of arguing ad hominem.

What a surprise to see the old lie of the Nazis being left wing trotted out once again…

The German economy was never a socialized economy, even during the war. The best description of it would be a kleptocracy. Fundamental to the Nazi regime was the supremacy of private property - businessmen were left alone to profit from government contracts (and confiscated Jewish property). When the government involved itself in the economy, it involved itself as private corporations, such as those set up by the SS. There was no nationalization of the means of production, or even the commanding heights thereof.

Then we see the public works programs pointed to - Hitler reduced these from von Brauning’s days, and it was von Brauning’s efforts that had done much to stabilize the German economy, resulting in declining Nazi support at the polls. The Nazi economic program, while certainly having red tinges, was never implemented, which, given the lack of restrictions on Nazi actions post takign power leads to only one possible conclusion - it was never intended to be implemented.

There were elements of the Nazi party that were more socialist in some ways - in particular the Strasser brothers and their supporters. Both were expelled from the party by Hitler, and Gregor was killed in the Night of the Long Knives, and Otto fled into exile. That’s how Hitler treated the left.

Given the actions of the Nazis against socialists and communists, with countless working class leaders murdered and tortured, it’s more than a little insulting for the Nazis to be called socialists by American conservatives. Conservatives and centrists in Germany were generally left alone - they prospered nicely under the Hitler regime. It was socialists and communists who along with Jews, gays, gypsies and others were sent to concentration camps. Conservatives found it very easy to cooperate and coexist with the Nazis. After all, they did nothing to oppose the rise of the fascists. It was the parties of the Left who fought the Nazis in the street and at the ballot box, and they only lost because of the betrayal by “conservatives” who saw socialism as a bigger threat.

And to be honest, the conservatives were right. To their lives of privilege, socialism probably was a bigger threat. The Nazis weren’t going to take the conservatives property, or even tax them much. It was the working class (and Jews, gypsies, gays, Jehovahs Witnesses and others) who had to fear the Nazis.

To nitpick, it’s Brüning, not von Brauning.

It wasn’t a matter of ideological difference, really:

That’s true! Damn you.

Von Papen - not von Bruning… Idiot.

Meh. Both systems select for ruthlessness, not adherence to any kind of consistent ideology. If someone in your country is a potential competitor for political or economic power (be it a plutocrat or a trade unionist), eliminate them. If there’s a neighboring country that has stuff you want (be it run by a right-wing or left-wing government), take it.

Anyone can cherry-pick moments in Stalin’s or Hitler’s regimes and argue they represent left- or right-wing political actions. Big fucking deal.

It would indeed not be a big deal if only the American Right would stop assigning the extremists of right wing ideologies also into the liberal camp. I do accept that extremists on the left have done harm.

It needs to be mentioned that I’m coming here denouncing the current efforts of people like Glenn Beck that are telling people to reach for fascistic like solutions (for now) on how to deal with liberals. After all, “it is ONLY liberals who have used those solutions in the past”, therefore any call to arms and repression that conservatives would apply to liberals will never reach fascistic levels as conservatives can **never **be liberal/fascists.

This conservative propaganda point that liberals are the fascists is tailor made to drive people into never wondering if following Beck and others could lead to real fascism. History has shown that extremism (and the eventual destruction of it caused also by that extremism) can happen when you are very effective in demonizing a group of people.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=jonah_goldbergs_bizarro_history

Are we doing so here? Provide analysis and back up your assertions, please.

Wrong.

  1. The “Right” and the “Left” are named for their seating placement within the Legislative Power. The term stems from the French Revolution.

  2. The nazis saw themselves as the antagonists of the communist movement (far left) and seated themselves on the far right of the Reichstag

Therefore: the nazis saw themselves as a far right movement. You can argue that they were wrong, but if you do so, it’s you who’s ret-conning their political orientation.
Q.E.D.

My cite is this thread.

It’s not like Hitler and Stalin had some strict ideological playbooks to follow - they did what they saw fit to eliminate enemies (real or imagined). Heck, if fascism is “distrust of reason” (a definition I’ve heard several times) and possibly tinged with racism (as described in this thread), you’d expect a fascist regime to be the one to eliminate Jewish scientists on a whim, only “the Doctor’s Plot” was a delusion of Stalin and there was no socialist or left-wing or any other ideological mechanism in the USSR to stop him until the moment he died.

Heck, even Ayn Rand thought fascism and communism were functionally identical.

What possible relevance does her opinion have here?

Jerrry Pournelle knows how to distinguish them.

Well . . . As with most simplistic statements about fascism, this one has some truth in it but oversimplifies. John J. Reilly writes: