# Explain "he wants to have his cake and eat it too" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868 "2009-02-21T17:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HumanMonkeyGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c67d28/32.png) [@HumanMonkeyGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanMonkeyGod)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/1 "2009-02-21T17:50:34Z")
I’ve been wondering about this; while I understand what’s meant by this phrase I don’t understand it literally. Are there people who like to have cake and _not_ eat it? Just stare at it? Talk to it? Pet it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/2 "2009-02-21T17:53:54Z")
No, it’s people who eat their cake and still want to have the piece. They can’t because they’ve just eaten it. But they still want it. The same sort of idea would be captured by saying, “He wants to keep his car forever and sell it for lots of money.” The two are exclusive. One or the other, but not both. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/3 "2009-02-21T17:58:06Z")
My take has always been that fancily decorated cakes, like birthday, wedding, graduation, etc., cakes are “too pretty to eat” but the average cake connoisseur wants to see how they taste as well as look. But once you slice it to eat it, the pretty is all gone. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/4 "2009-02-21T18:09:41Z")
I have a cake in the fridge. I would like to eat my cake. However, I would also like to have a cake in the fridge, in case I want cake tomorrow. I am thus in a cake quandary. I wish to have my cake and eat it too. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/5 "2009-02-21T18:31:17Z")
This saying has always bugged me in a vague way; not enough to seek resolution, but enough to occasionally ponder. My usual line of thinking was, “What’s the point of having a cake if you can’t eat it?” Thanks to you folks, one of the little, niggling worries that have plagued me for years is now resolved. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/6 "2009-02-21T18:52:03Z")
Don’t know if this is right, but I understood the phrase to have gotten turned around: “Eat your cake and have it too” conveys better the sense of wanting something you’ve just made impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/7 "2009-02-21T18:58:19Z")
I always thought the saying used “have” with a shade of meaning that is older, more like “keep” or “save”. And we use “have” in the sense of “eat”, also - “I think I’ll have that slice of cake” now means the opposite of what it did in this saying. At least, this is my take on the evolution of how “have” gets used. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/8 "2009-02-22T00:34:00Z")
It’s like a lot of men who are attracted to virgins. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/9 "2009-02-22T01:13:09Z")
Virgins keep cake in the fridge? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/10 "2009-02-22T01:17:59Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > Virgins keep cake in the fridge? 😕 Is that what they call it now? It’s so hard to keep up with modern slang. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/11 "2009-02-22T01:58:35Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Is that what they call it now? It’s so hard to keep up with modern slang. Yeah, it used to be known as an “ice box” - so much more descriptive. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/12 "2009-02-22T02:36:38Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Don’t know if this is right, but I understood the phrase to have gotten turned around: “Eat your cake and have it too” conveys better the sense of wanting something you’ve just made impossible. That’s basically correct. It made it’s first appearance in a written work called _A Dialogue Conteynyng Prouerbes and Epigrammes of 1562_ by John Heywood as, “Wolde ye bothe eate your cake and haue your cake?” Source: [_Now You Know Almost Everything_](http://books.google.com/books?id=18M_auTiNf0C&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=%22would+you+both+eat+your+cake,+and+have+your+cake%22&source=bl&ots=44BM0j3HEv&sig=WMvPT-3TMlQZrdVDRzZXLGL7y54&hl=en&ei=_LagSerWE4nYsAOvwInaCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result) by Doug Lennox. It’s completely nonsensical the other way around, and one of my English language pet peeves. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/13 "2009-02-22T02:59:40Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > That’s basically correct. It made it’s first appearance in a written work called _A Dialogue Conteynyng Prouerbes and Epigrammes of 1562_ by John Heywood as, “Wolde ye bothe eate your cake and haue your cake?” Random question: how is that “aue” in old quotations, like “haue” in that one, supposed to be pronounced? I seem to recall seeing it a lot in written representations of Scots, too. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/14 "2009-02-22T04:16:02Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Yeah, it used to be known as an “ice box” - so much more descriptive. \ does that mean they’re frigid too? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/15 "2009-02-22T05:23:41Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > That’s basically correct. It made it’s first appearance in a written work called _A Dialogue Conteynyng Prouerbes and Epigrammes of 1562_ by John Heywood as, “Wolde ye bothe eate your cake and haue your cake?” > > Source: [_Now You Know Almost Everything_](http://books.google.com/books?id=18M_auTiNf0C&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=%22would+you+both+eat+your+cake,+and+have+your+cake%22&source=bl&ots=44BM0j3HEv&sig=WMvPT-3TMlQZrdVDRzZXLGL7y54&hl=en&ei=_LagSerWE4nYsAOvwInaCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result) by Doug Lennox. > > It’s completely nonsensical the other way around, and one of my English language pet peeves. Yeah, baby, that’s where I musta read it. I was just leafing through a little Heywood the other day… ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/16 "2009-02-22T05:50:21Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > Random question: how is that “aue” in old quotations, like “haue” in that one, supposed to be pronounced? I seem to recall seeing it a lot in written representations of Scots, too. Wikipedia explains: > [@](#): > > During the late Middle Ages, two forms of “v” developed, which were both used for modern _u_ and _v_. The pointed form “v” was written at the beginning of a word, while a rounded form “u” was used in the middle or end, regardless of sound. So whereas _valor_ and _excuse_ appeared as in modern printing, “have” and “upon” were printed _haue_ and _vpon_. Eventually, in the 1700s, to differentiate between the consonant and vowel sounds, the “v” form was used to represent the consonant, and “u” the vowel sound, giving us the modern letter “u”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/17 "2009-02-22T06:10:12Z")
And speaking of non-cakes, my mother told me once that it is good to have your cook and eat her too. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/18 "2009-02-22T06:19:27Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s completely nonsensical the other way around, and one of my English language pet peeves. It’s hardly nonsensical. The point of the idiom is that you want to simultaneously have two contradictory things - you want to eat the cake and not eat the cake. So if the point is the two things existing paradoxically at the same time, why quibble about which one is mentioned first? ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/19 "2009-02-22T07:00:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s hardly nonsensical. The point of the idiom is that you want to simultaneously have two contradictory things - you want to eat the cake and not eat the cake. So if the point is the two things existing paradoxically at the same time, why quibble about which one is mentioned first? I was going to post this, but then I realized that if you take it absolutely literally, you _can_ “have a cake and eat it, too”. In fact, having it is a necessary prerequisite for eating it. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868/20 "2009-02-22T07:18:07Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s hardly nonsensical. The point of the idiom is that you want to simultaneously have two contradictory things - you want to eat the cake and not eat the cake. So if the point is the two things existing paradoxically at the same time, why quibble about which one is mentioned first? You’ve _defined_ the idiom properly, but have not _described_ the idiom properly. See below for further explanation. > [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > I was going to post this, but then I realized that if you take it absolutely literally, you can “have a cake and eat it, too”. In fact, having it is a necessary prerequisite for eating it. Yes. Which is the exact opposite of the definition of the idiom. It’s meant to represent two things that cannot be had at the same time. One _can_ have their cake and eat it, too. One _cannot_ eat their cake and have it, too, for once it’s eaten, it can no longer be had – it’s _gone_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-he-wants-to-have-his-cake-and-eat-it-too/486868.md?page=2)