# Explain jazz to me. Please! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 4, 2002, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735 "2002-04-04T06:41:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/81 "2002-04-09T00:26:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ricecake \* > **partly\_warmer, …Jazz as an artform is older than rock and pop today, are you going to question these forms of music as valid, or that havnt shown the test of time? > Are you going to make an argument saying that the Beatles and Radiohead are two different styles even though they both fit into what was considered pop music of the day? … > partly\_warmer, im not going to quote your argument about the easy listening of music, but here is my response. > To those of us who have dedicated or lives to music, the complex forms of music that take a long time to learn and understand are the only kinds of music that we can appreciate as valid or as moving to us. The garbage that sells albums today may be easy to listen too, but its like asking a physicist at NASA to enjoy wasting his time doing simple arithmetic.** Being on imperishable media does not guarantee immortality. There were 1,000s of books published in the 1800s which will be read (at most) a few times a year from now on, and which will never make any notable impact on culture. So it will be with most every composition of the 20th century, 100 years from now. I think good rock-and-roll is on a par with good jazz. I don’t think the existing corpus of either are on a par with what’s been written in classical music, for reasons given. Most of what I’ve heard at “jazz festivals”, on the radio, in “hip” restaurants is lame. Muzak. Rock may be crude and obvious, but it’s less often completely dull. Also, rock is rarely so pretentious that a listener can’t figure out what the hell is going on. Nice try on the NASA argument, but as it happens I worked at NASA for many years. I don’t dispute the point, but the analogy isn’t strong. Learning is inherently always looking for something new. Being a great engineer means breaking technological barriers. But appreciating good music is not a paying job for 99.9% of the world. It’s a leisure activity. It’s fun. It’s relaxing. It’s amusing. There’s a certain intellectual component, but for people, most of the time, it’s secondary. You’re a professional musican? Great. I won’t bore you with details of uncertainties of taxonomy and structure in natural language processing while you’re trying to have a good time with your SO, and you return the favor by not playing Theolonious Mingus interpreting “Pennies from Blueberry Hill” over my Thai soup. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/82 "2002-04-09T00:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ndorward \* > **I perhaps might understand this better if I understood your “difficulty”. I don’t understand why a listener need worry about “most people” when listening to music. Do you need to take a poll & ascertain if other people like a piece of music before you decide if you like it or not? If I understand your claim, it’s that “Because piece X is not enjoyed by ‘most people’, then it is no good.” But even this is simply to talk about your own tastes, it’s not a statement of objective fact… > Fine, & I’m sure you’re right that jazz is only a minority enthusiasm in those two particular groupings, but there’s nothing to prevent your friend from addressing other communities. > …** If we talk much about this, they’ll switch us to “Great Debates”. The number of people reached may not be a complete and definitive way of defining good art. As an artist, what is your goal? To utterly change the life of one person, or to make a million people feel good? It depends, doesn’t it? I say that an artist has a right to decide. Period. I’ll define whom my art is for. If I decide that my music is only to be appreciated over breakfast cereal crunching in the morning, I have that right. I DON’T have the right to tell everyone to go buy Grape Nuts, because makes my music sound great. No one is obliged, no one is missing a great opportunity, no one is selling out because they won’t buy Grape Nuts and listen to my music. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Goo_Fee)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/83 "2002-04-09T01:19:45Z")
i am so sorry that some of you don’t _get_ jazz. i can’t understand it though because i _get_ it without even trying… it automatically moves me effortlessly. (i am speaking about well-played jazz-- not your kid sister fumbling through kenny g crap) but cheer up! you don’t have to get jazz… nobody ever said that you did! you can spend your time getting britney spears instead. oh… and enjoy your Wonder Bread sandwiches too! ---
**Author:** ![ndorward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@ndorward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ndorward)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/84 "2002-04-09T05:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doctor Goo Fee \* > \*\*but cheer up! you don’t have to get jazz… nobody ever said that you did! > > you can spend your time getting britney spears instead. > > oh… and enjoy your Wonder Bread sandwiches too! \*\* **Dr Goofy** : If you look up a few posts you’ll find a few brief comments on the error of such casual condescension. **partly\_warmer** : I’m afraid I don’t understand your last post: perhaps re-expressing it without the analogies would help? Because what you seem to be saying doesn’t make sense: I can’t think of any musician who demands that _everyone_ like their work. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Goo_Fee)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/85 "2002-04-09T06:14:50Z")
ndorward– i may have casually condescended… i’m pretty sure i did… but i don’t think any posts will show my _error_, as it was simply an opinion… i may have been a little rough with the Wonder Bread thing, but really… is jazz so difficult for people to understand? it’s not an intellectual pursuit… it is merely an art form that one feels… musician’s music??? BAHHH! it is wonderful music for anyone who has a soul… and for those who don’t? i still suggest Ms. Spears and her ilk. thank you. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/86 "2002-04-09T06:39:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ndorward \* > \*\*I perhaps might understand this better if I understood your “difficulty”. I don’t understand why a listener need worry about “most people” when listening to music. Do you need to take a poll & ascertain if other people like a piece of music before you decide if you like it or not…I think you’re also wrong to consider the enjoyment of music in any sense “effortless”. \*\* The “difficulty,” my oh, so fledgling artiste, is that if you’re doing art for someone besides yourself, it’s real important to identify who that is. If you think to be an artist in a vacuum, then: hey! anything you do is GREAT! Numbers aren’t important. But jazz, on car bumper stickers reading “Keep Jazz Alive” is an artform, let me say it bluntly, which is not as lively as it thinks it is. ---
**Author:** ![ndorward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@ndorward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ndorward)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/87 "2002-04-09T17:23:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > \*\*But jazz, on car bumper stickers reading “Keep Jazz Alive” is an artform, let me say it bluntly, which is not as lively as it thinks it is. \*\* I’m afraid I don’t understand this sentence, as it’s garbled, though the sentiment is clear enough. All music part of a social network, & you are simply incorrect to think that because you don’t like jazz or some other form of music that it’s performed to please no-one except the performer. The clubs & concert venues I’ve attended are hardly deserted, even if by the standards of stadium rock the audiences are miniscule. ---
**Author:** ![ricecake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@ricecake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricecake)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/88 "2002-04-09T17:28:49Z")
What’s your problem partly\_warmer? Are you saying that bad jazz is pushed down your throat, and that you want the right to not listen to it? Fine, then don’t listen to it and ignore it. Remember the OP who wanted to have jazz explained to him or her? I would assume that (s)he had some interest in jazz. > [@](#): > > There were 1,000s of books published in the 1800s which will be read (at most) a few times a year from now on, and which will never make any notable impact on culture. So it will be with most every composition of the 20th century, 100 years from now. The concept is moot for us. > [@](#): > > …and you return the favor by not playing Theolonious Mingus interpreting “Pennies from Blueberry Hill” over my Thai soup. I don’t see anyone here forcing you to listen to jazz, and speaking of poor analogies… can you at least get the names right? > [@](#): > > …it’s real important to identify who that is. Obviously jazz is not intended for your satisfaction, but there are people who appreciate it believe it or not. > [@](#): > > But jazz, on car bumper stickers reading “Keep Jazz Alive” is an artform, let me say it bluntly, which is not as lively as it thinks it is. I’m not sure I understand your argument, but i think your saying jazz is dead. I don’t know where you live, but here in Chicago jazz is very much alive, and it has a support base to keep it that way. Jazz will be played today and in the future with your support or not, if you don’t like it ignore it. I am tired of talking to you, you are dragging this entire discussion down the toilet… ---
**Author:** ![ndorward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@ndorward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ndorward)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/89 "2002-04-09T19:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > All music **is** part of a social network… of course. --N ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/90 "2002-04-10T04:29:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \* > \*\*Except for Barry Manilow. \*\* Yeah, him and Weird Al Yankovic, of course. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/91 "2002-04-10T05:05:43Z")
Hmm… while ricecake and ndorward demonstrate their astonishing command of the English language, they provide equally compelling evidence that supporters of jazz don’t apply much logic to their defense of their personal music favorites. I never said I didn’t like jazz. I said I PLAYED it fer gosh sake. No, I don’t think jazz is dead. I DO think that defensive bumper stickers are evidence that some folks aren’t too in tune with reality. I said: “But jazz, on car bumper stickers reading “Keep Jazz Alive” is an artform, let me say it bluntly, which is not as lively as it thinks it is.” nodoor, old boy, let me rephrase this as simply as i can, since sentence structure doesn’t seem to be your forte. I say this bluntly. I have seen bumper stickers. These stickers are attached to bumpers. They can be read by people in other cars. They are a message from the owner of the car about something that’s important to them. There are bumper stickers in my town. One reads “Keep Jazz Alive”. To a thinking person, this means there’s some doubt of it being alive in the near future. I said “There were 1,000s of books published in the 1800s which will be read (at most) a few times a year from now on, and which will never make any notable impact on culture. So it will be with most every composition of the 20th century, 100 years from now.” nodoorwind says “this is moot” That’s very close to what I’m saying. Almost got it. The ORIGINAL POSTER asked what the purpose was of some broad going “bah-bah-doobie-wah, my man left me, sue-doo-do-do-dah” in front of an audience was. He thought it was pointless. I don’t quite agree. I kinda like scat. But an impromptu vocal that’ll last a 100 years? Not a frigging chance. ---
**Author:** ![sim0n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@sim0n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sim0n)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/92 "2002-04-10T05:25:43Z")
**"Once is a Mistake… Twice is Jazz"** -source unknown ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/93 "2002-04-10T14:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \* > \*\*Except for Barry Manilow. \*\* Oy! Actually, I thought _Paradise Cafe_ was the only listenable album he produced. And hey, it’s got Sarah Vaughan on it…I can forgive a lot if it means hearing more of Sarah Vaughan… ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/94 "2002-04-10T15:15:37Z")
All those posts mentioning the greats and not a single person has recommended **Nina Simone**. My God, people have you never heard her version of _Sinnerman_ from 1965? I said it on another board and I’ll repeat it here. That is one of the most astonishing recordings I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/95 "2002-04-10T16:28:06Z")
I’m quite fond of **Don Cherry** , especially his album _Hear & Now_, and his work with **Codona**. These albums are immediately accessible even to folks who never listened to jazz, especially _Codona_. **Larry Coryell** did an album with Philip Catherine: _Twin-House_. Just two acoustic guitars jazzing together, nothing more, nothing less. I was playing that one day and my rock-‘n’-roll friend who didn’t even like jazz felt compelled to walk up and give me five! He said, “This is the most refreshing, fascinating, enjoyable sound I’ve heard in ages!” LC & PC did another album like that, but I liked _Twin-House_ the best. **John Coltrane** is usually associated with edgy experimental free jazz that broke all previously known boundaries wide open … but some of his earlier tunes from the late 50s or early 60s are fairly accessible while still highlighting his extraordinary musical genius and deep artistic sensibility. Try “Giant Steps” for a hot uptempo number, or “Naima” for a tender ballad. My favorite number from the “accessible” Coltrane repertoire is “Spiritual” — from the album _Coltrane Live! at the Village Vanguard_, with Eric Dolphy on bass clarinet. You should definitely give this a listen. They start off with a slow, soulful melody that powerfully evokes the deep richness of the centuries of suffering and endurance of the African-American soul. Then the band members get a chance to stretch out and improvise, exploring many shades of creativity while still keeping within conventional restraints. It’s a deeply moving experience. Coltrane’s mid-60s album _A Love Supreme_ was semi-free jazz, somewhat unstructured, but was a big crossover hit with non-jazz fans. Trane was an amazing mystic and consummate artist who used the saxophone to express thoughts that no one had ever tried before. Check it out, you may be pleasantly surprised. ---
**Author:** ![ndorward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c2a13f/32.png) [@ndorward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ndorward)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/96 "2002-04-10T17:19:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > \*\*nodoor, old boy… > > I said “There were 1,000s of books published in the 1800s which will be read (at most) a few times a year from now on, and which will never make any notable impact on culture. So it will be with most every composition of the 20th century, 100 years from now.” > > nodoorwind says “this is moot”\*\* **partly\_warmer** : you may find it useful to use the “quote” button" that is at the bottom of each posting to the board; this will automatically reproduce the poster’s name & accurately quote his words. This saves you from accidentally misspelling his name & misattributing words to him. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/97 "2002-04-10T17:55:48Z")
Now that Coltrane has been discussed I want to add more recs (this from the person who recommended Bill Evans Trio music so you know where I’m coming from): A great and necessary sound is mid-Miles, specifically four albums with the First Quintet (Miles, Coltrane, Red Garland, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones): Relaxin’ with the Miles Davis Quintet Workin’ " " " " " Cookin’ " " " " " Steamin’ " " " " " This is very classic, standard, straight-forward stuff for the most part, Coltrane sounding like a rather different player than on _Giant Steps_ but still recognizable. These albums contain the “definitive version” (in my opinion) of most every standard they play. Beautiful music, really easy to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/98 "2002-04-11T21:04:56Z")
Ha! Let me tell you my experience. When I was just a wee laddie, my dad had a huge collection of old 78s. I spun those for hours when I was only 4 or 5 years old and totally dug them. That’s why jazz was the first music I ever liked. When I was 10 or 11, back in 1970, I was in the Columbia Record Club and decided I’d better build up my jazz collection. I turned to the page in that month’s catalog with the bold header “NOW YOU HAS JAZZ!” and browsed. Miles Davis, yeah, gotta get me some Miles. SO I ordered up the double LP _Miles Davis at the Fillmore_. Whoa, baby… When it arrived I put it on and WTF? I couldn’t make head or tail of it. It was formless gonzo spaced-out free-jam acid funk. My idea of “jazz” up till then was Satchmo! Like Charles Ives, I wondered “Are my ears on wrong?” There was no point of musical reference for me to catch hold of, it was electric amorphous atonal blowing. (It had Airto Moreira on percussion, though!) I put it away and didn’t attempt listening again for years. In the meantime, the jazz guy on WJW started playing the whole Miles album _Sketches of Spain_ and I fell in love. So my point is, there’s Miles and then there’s Miles. The suggestions to start out with the über-classic _Kind of Blue_, and **masonite** ’s _Quintet_ recommendations are right on, and I offer up _Sketches of Spain_ as another highly accessible, and beautiful, Miles album. When I was in college and started doing mind-boggling drugs, I went back to _Miles Davis at the Fillmore_ and this time totally dug it, man. I was born just a little too late for the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/99 "2002-04-12T01:24:09Z")
Here is a long text primer all about jazz, its aesthetics, its history, its greats, and how it all works musically. This is a good answer to the OP. Read this and let me know if it answers your questions. [http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/3049/ingles/lecciones/jazztheo.txt](http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/3049/ingles/lecciones/jazztheo.txt) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735/100 "2002-04-14T15:34:16Z")
I really dig **Randy Weston** for his explorations of African musical culture, African spirituality, African roots in his music. Once I went to a small gathering at an African-American community center where he sat at the piano and talked about his life in Morocco and how he connected with indigenous African music and integrated it into his jazz compositions. Accompanied by a conga drummer, he played my favorite masterpiece of his, “Blue Moses” — an expression of the ancient African spiritual vibe. “Blue Moses” is based on this throbbing, infectious blues riff derived from African _kora_ playing and just vibrates my spirit in harmonic resonance through and through. So I consider Randy Weston a very accessible jazz artist for a beginner in jazz. Check him out! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jazz-to-me-please/101735.md?page=6)