# Explain Jim DeMint's reaction to the Honduran Constitutional Crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602 "2009-10-21T14:01:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/1 "2009-10-21T14:01:33Z")
So the apparently legitimately elected head of government of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, was ousted in a military coup this year. The interim government has not been recognized by anyone who matters. However, Senator Jim DeMint and several other Republican senators have taken it upon themselves to endorse the current government, in opposition to the White House and pretty much everyone else. Why? Is it just because Zelaya is a leftist? Or is he actually a “Chavez-style despot” as DeMint claimed? Or is DeMint just trying to oppose the White House on everything he possibly can? I don’t know anything about Honduras or its government, frankly, so I’m finding it difficult to figure this one out- especially what DeMint’s interest in the matter might be. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/2 "2009-10-21T15:27:56Z")
Obama for it, there agin’ it. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/3 "2009-10-21T15:55:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So the apparently legitimately elected head of government of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, was ousted in a military coup this year. The interim government has not been recognized by anyone who matters. > > However, Senator Jim DeMint and several other Republican senators have taken it upon themselves to endorse the current government, in opposition to the White House and pretty much everyone else. > > Why? Is it just because Zelaya is a leftist? Or is he actually a “Chavez-style despot” as DeMint claimed? Or is DeMint just trying to oppose the White House on everything he possibly can? > > I don’t know anything about Honduras or its government, frankly, so I’m finding it difficult to figure this one out- especially what DeMint’s interest in the matter might be. It was not a military coup. Zelaya violated the Honduran constitution. The military was acting on the orders of the legislature and the supreme court. They should have arrested rather than deport him but I don’t think that matters as to the legitimacy of the current government. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/4 "2009-10-21T16:20:31Z")
Then why isn’t anyone recognizing the current government? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/5 "2009-10-21T16:30:59Z")
The Miami Herald no longer has a link to the story but, back in July, they quoted a Honduran military lawyer admitting that they broke the law in deposing Zelaya but felt that the ends justified the means: > [@](#): > > TEGUCIGALPA – The military officers who rushed deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya out of the country Sunday committed a crime but will be exonerated for saving the country from mob violence, the army’s top lawyer said. > > In an interview with The Miami Herald and El Salvador’s [elfaro.net](http://elfaro.net), army attorney Col. Herberth Bayardo Inestroza acknowledged that top military brass made the call to forcibly remove Zelaya – and they circumvented laws when they did it. > > It was the first time any participant in Sunday’s overthrow admitted committing an offense and the first time a Honduran authority revealed who made the decision that has been denounced worldwide. > > “We know there was a crime there,” said Inestroza, the top legal advisor for the Honduran armed forces. “In the moment that we took him out of the country, in the way that he was taken out, there is a crime. Because of the circumstances of the moment this crime occurred, there is going to be a justification and cause for acquittal that will protect us.” I had that quoted on another forum, hence my being able to pull it up now. Probably still available via LexisNexis or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/6 "2009-10-21T16:39:06Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > The Miami Herald no longer has a link to the story but, back in July, they quoted a Honduran military lawyer admitting that they broke the law in deposing Zelaya but felt that the ends justified the means: > > I had that quoted on another forum, hence my being able to pull it up now. Probably still available via LexisNexis or somesuch. Your quote states that the lawyer believes the law was broken by removing him from Honduras, not by deposing him. His actions were considered treason by the constitution and the Supreme Court ordered the military to take action ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/7 "2009-10-21T16:40:50Z")
What actions, and why does DeMint care enough to buck the nation’s official position on a matter of foreign policy? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/8 "2009-10-21T16:54:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What actions, and why does DeMint care enough to buck the nation’s official position on a matter of foreign policy? Well, the supreme court ordered Zelaya arrested. I’m not sure where the deportation order came from. My main point is that this was not a coup as stated in the OP. I don’t claim to know DeMint’s motivation other than he disagrees with the nation’s official position. I’m sure there is some political motive as well…there always is with everyone in political offices. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/9 "2009-10-21T17:30:45Z")
According to [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8124154.stm), he had not actually violated the Honduran constitution yet, just planned to, so it seems as though his detention and deportation were in fact elements of a coup. (Certainly that’s a bit of a semantic argument, but in a sense it’s no different than charging somebody with murder even though they were arrested before actually committing the crime.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/10 "2009-10-21T18:21:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What actions, and why does DeMint care enough to buck the nation’s official position on a matter of foreign policy? And what about the [Logan Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act)? I seem to remember hearing that question from Pubs a few times over the past few years . . . ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/11 "2009-10-21T19:11:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > According to [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8124154.stm), he had not actually violated the Honduran constitution yet, just planned to, so it seems as though his detention and deportation were in fact elements of a coup. > > (Certainly that’s a bit of a semantic argument, but in a sense it’s no different than charging somebody with murder even though they were arrested before actually committing the crime.) Read this piece by Miguel Estrada. The idea is that the only reason to rewrite the constitution would be to amend an unamendable part of the document…specifically the term limit of the president. > **[When a coup isn't](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-jul-10-oe-estrada10-story.html)** > > Honduras' non-coup I disagreed with your statement that this was a military coup. The military was, and still is, under civilian command. The legistature (mostly his own party) voted that the act was illegal and that he should be removed from office. I personally don’t consider the seemingly legal actions of the congress and the supreme court to constitute a coup. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/12 "2009-10-21T19:13:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And what about the [Logan Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act)? I seem to remember hearing that question from Pubs a few times over the past few years . . . Has DeMint been in touch with the Honduran government or is he just at odds with the current US administration? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/13 "2009-10-21T19:18:01Z")
He [went to Honduras](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27862.html) almost immediately after the… um… transfer of power, and met with the new President. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/14 "2009-10-21T19:25:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He [went to Honduras](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27862.html) almost immediately after the… um… transfer of power, and met with the new President. Well, I suppose it falls into the same category as Pelosi’s trip to Syria. I don’t have an opinion on either of these events. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/15 "2009-10-21T19:37:31Z")
Not quite the same category, since we recognize Syria’s government, but I see what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/16 "2009-10-21T20:02:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not quite the same category, since we recognize Syria’s government, but I see what you mean. Yes, and Syria is a state sponsor of terror. So, it’s not really the exact same thing. I have no knowledge in this area except what I read on that wiki page. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/17 "2009-10-21T23:12:34Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Read this piece by Miguel Estrada. The idea is that the only reason to rewrite the constitution would be to amend an unamendable part of the document…specifically the term limit of the president. > > [When a coup isn't](http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/10/opinion/oe-estrada10?pg=2) Like another doper said, it is supposed to be a constitution, not a suicide pact. As Oscar Arias mentioned (the original negotiator for a settlement to this issue, he proposed a solution that the coup government refused to accept) the Hondurans constitution is one of the worst in the world because it is setup to create situations like the ones we have now. Regardless if Zelaya does not come back, his point that the constitution needs to be changed is a valid one. And regardless of the accusations to Zelaya the fact remains that his removal from office was the worse offense. > [@yorick73](#): > > I disagreed with your statement that this was a military coup. The military was, and still is, under civilian command. The legistature (mostly his own party) voted that the act was illegal and that he should be removed from office. I personally don’t consider the seemingly legal actions of the congress and the supreme court to constitute a coup. :rolleyes: [http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3450/what-some-us-reporters-dont-get-about-brazil-and-honduras-crisis](http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3450/what-some-us-reporters-dont-get-about-brazil-and-honduras-crisis) > [@](#): > > When Brazilian President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva addressed this morning’s UN General Assembly in New York, he said: > > ``` > "Without political will, we will see more coups such as the one that toppled Manuel Zelaya in Honduras." > > ``` > > I don’t know what is so hard for some observers to understand about that statement, which comes from the elected president of a country that itself was victimized by a military coup d’etat in 1964. Brazil, like every other democracy on the planet, has a legitimate self interest in making sure that no military coup succeeds, especially in its own hemisphere. > > **Like the 2009 coup in Honduras, the 1964 putsch had a “civilian” gloss when Brazil’s vice president ascended to the presidency but under terms dictated by the military. (Much like the top Honduran military lawyer told the Miami Herald in July that “It would be difficult for us, with our training, to have a relationship with a leftist government. That’s impossible.” That was a smoking gun that demonstrated how the Honduras coup regime’s claims to be a “democracy” led by civilians are utter rubbish: When the Armed Forces dictate that the people can’t elect a government of the left, or it will always risk a violent coup - which is exactly what that military official said - they are dictating the terms. That’s where the word dictatorship comes from.)** > > Fair and free elections are impossible under such a regime. In recent days, the Honduran coup of “president” Roberto Micheletti has demonstrated, again, that it is incapable democratic governance. Peaceful Hondurans came to the Brazilian Embassy to greet their only elected President, Manuel Zelaya, and they were violently driven away with water cannon tanks, tear gas, billy clubs, and rubber bullets. National Police then followed the dispersed crowd into the popular barrios to wound and maim them, and invaded homes that provided them refuge. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/18 "2009-10-21T23:33:13Z")
As for the demented DeMint: [http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=298](http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=298) > [@](#): > > Jim DeMint picked a hell of a time to travel to Honduras. The right-wing South Carolina senator embarked on a “fact-finding trip” to Honduras last Friday — leading a congressional delegation that included fellow Republicans Peter Roskam, Doug Lamborn, and Aaron Schock — after overriding the objections of Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman John Kerry. The delegation met with leaders of the de facto government that deposed President Manuel Zelaya in a June coup, including acting President Roberto Micheletti. > > The Republican delegation’s trip is indicative of the strong support that the post-coup regime enjoys from the American right.\*\* While the coup and its aftermath have been condemned by Latin American leaders across the political spectrum — including rightists like Alvaro Uribe of Colombia and Felipe Calderon of Mexico — their counterparts in the U.S. have demonstrated no such qualms\*\*, offering unqualified support for the Micheletti government. > [@](#): > > Now, reports are beginning to reach the American media concerning the Honduran security forces’ brutal repression of pro-Zelaya forces. On Monday, the New York Times finally took note, in a must-read story that highlighted fairly shocking violence against peaceful protesters and described “an atmosphere of growing impunity, one in which security forces act unhindered by legal constraints.” The story also notes the problems inherent in the upcoming November elections, which the Micheletti regime has claimed will wipe the slate clean. As human rights lawyer Javier Acevedo told the Times, “Elections are a risk because people won’t vote… **The soldiers and police at the polls will be the same ones as those who have been carrying out the repression.”** > > The Honduras debacle is providing still more evidence (as if any more were needed) that the neocons’ newfound love of “democracy promotion” is primarily rhetorical. The right’s treatment of Honduras is reminiscent of nothing so much as its revolting Cold War-era human rights policies in Latin America. (And in many cases the principal players remain the same — that means you, Elliott Abrams.) It remains to be seen whether any of the self-proclaimed champions of “Honduran democracy” will see fit to denounce Micheletti’s increasingly bloody crackdown. > > Regardless, it seems that Jim DeMint’s “fact-finding” mission has a plethora of facts to find, should he choose to take notice of them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/19 "2009-10-22T01:36:49Z")
[Poll: Majority of Hondurans oppose coup, want Zelaya back.](http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3511/poll-wide-majority-hondurans-oppose-coup-d%E2%80%99etat-want-zelaya-back) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/20 "2009-10-22T01:51:34Z")
Perhaps DeMint admores the frugality of the new government. After all, [two of his South Caroline Republican Party officals praised him for protecting American taxpayer money like a Jew protecting his pennies.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j810GNtjYD6SGBWQd7qW-uQMcE0gD9BF10PO2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602.md?page=2)