# Explain Jim DeMint's reaction to the Honduran Constitutional Crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602 "2009-10-21T14:01:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/21 "2009-10-22T02:40:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Like another doper said, it is supposed to be a constitution, not a suicide pact. > > As Oscar Arias mentioned (the original negotiator for a settlement to this issue, he proposed a solution that the coup government refused to accept) the Hondurans constitution is one of the worst in the world because it is setup to create situations like the ones we have now. Regardless if Zelaya does not come back, his point that the constitution needs to be changed is a valid one. > > And regardless of the accusations to Zelaya the fact remains that his removal from office was the worse offense. So the military controls the supreme court and Zelaya’s own party in congress? It seems to me the constitution was written to safeguard against the kind of power grab that we are seeing in Venezuela. Zelaya violated the constitution and the other branches of government acted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/22 "2009-10-22T02:50:48Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > It seems to me the constitution was written to safeguard against the kind of power grab that we are seeing in Venezuela. :rolleyes: “Power grab”? Whatever this “Bolivarian Revolution” is, “socialism” or something else, the Venezuelan people have made it very, very clear, several times now, after chances to re-evaluate in light of results on the ground, that they want it. Therefore, they should have it. “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” – H.L. Mencken ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/23 "2009-10-22T03:34:11Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > So the military controls the supreme court and Zelaya’s own party in congress? It would not surprise me to find family relatives on all the groups mentioned. Point being that Latin American history shows that the military makes coups and election frauds knowing that many on the courts and in congress will rubber stamp all actions that will benefit them. > [@yorick73](#): > > It seems to me the constitution was written to safeguard against the kind of power grab that we are seeing in Venezuela. Zelaya violated the constitution and the other branches of government acted. You fail at history forever. 🙂 Well, the Honduran constitution was made under the watchful eyes of the previous military dictatorships in Honduras and to me that is why there was virtually no good mechanism in it to impeach the president. You are proposing here that pre-crimes should be a good reason to make a coup. The thing the right wingers in Honduras complained about was that Zelaya proposed a vote to call for a future constitutional convention to make changes. Zelaya had no way to run again as president next November. **At worst** , he could had influenced the constitutional convention to remove the limitation to never run again and Zelaya would had to wait several years to run again. It is clear to me that Zelaya had no guarantees that he could even pull that off. But Hondurans have realized that a resolution of this crisis and the future quest of justice in Honduras does \*\*not \*\*depend on Zelaya. [http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3399/toppling-coup-part-vii-school-leaders-honduras](http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3399/toppling-coup-part-vii-school-leaders-honduras) > [@](#): > > The declaration denounced the “violation of human rights” by the coup regime that stole power on June 28. It offered support to the Arias plan to restore President Manuel Zelaya to the post to which he was elected. But the youths’ interpretation of that plan may differ significantly from that of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton: their most prominent demand was that on the last Sunday of November in 2010, the people of Honduras vote in a national plebiscite to create a process to write, democratically, a new Constitution for the nation. (The conditions of the Plan Arias that is backed by Washington prohibit President Manuel Zelaya from promoting a constitutional convention upon his negotiated return to the presidency. With this declaration, the Afro-Honduran youth – organized at an advanced level that surely ought to impress and prick the conscience of the community organizer that currently occupies the White House - have made it crystal clear that no such deal applies to them or their aspirations for a more democratic Honduras. With or without Zelaya’s return, they’re organizing for a new Constitution.) > > Many groups and individuals make declarations, but this one comes from a network of highly trained organizers with the capacity and infrastructure to mobilize a lot of noise and light upon its demand. Higarugu niburetiñu garinago… The Garifuna youth is coming to make sure that the popular demand for a new Honduran Constitution shall not be lost in the maneuvers by the powers up above. > > After the youths read aloud and unanimously approved of the declaration, Celeo Alvarez addressed the youths. “This declaration will surely go around the world,” he said, expressing pride in their “coherence” and passion for justice. Alvarez said he would take the declaration of the youths next month to Washington DC where he and other Afrodescendent leaders from throughout the hemisphere will meet from September 21-25 under the banner of ONECA, the Central American Black Organization, which has deep connections with US Civil Rights organizations, leaders, community organizers and the Congressional Black Caucus. Alvarez was ONECA’s president for its first 14 years, and is a member of its governing board. > > … > > So that no one around the world, in Washington or anywhere else, will need his or her spectacles to read it, here’s the money ‘graph - the only part of it for which they wrote some words in ALL CAPS, for emphasis - of the youths’ declaration, when they call for: > > ``` > “The convocation of a PLEBISCITE so that the citizenry can vote on the writing of a NEW CONSTITUTION, with clear guarantees for wider and more representative participation among all sectors of the Honduran people. This plebiscite should be held on the last Sunday of November of 2010.” > > ``` > > And that you are reading the youths’ declaration – here is the full text translated to English and here in Spanish, including the signatures of the 75 young community organizers that co-authored it – is evidence that their call for a November 2010 national referendum for new Constitution has already begun its journey across the planet and throughout the larger School of Leaders that is a country named Honduras. Those BTW are the black minorities in Honduras; but it shows that in Honduras, like in El Salvador, elites can control all branches of government and order coups À la carte. One of the unfortunate side effects of democracy is to sometimes tell the majority that just because they rubber stamp a coup it does not mean that the rest of the word should stand back and do nothing. Specially when doing noting will encourage other reactionaries in Latin America to order from the same menu. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/24 "2009-10-22T13:45:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: “Power grab”? Whatever this “Bolivarian Revolution” is, “socialism” or something else, the Venezuelan people have made it very, very clear, several times now, after chances to re-evaluate in light of results on the ground, that they want it. Therefore, they should have it. Sorry, it isn’t that clear to me. In the last elections in 2008 over 300 candidates were disqualified from running by the comptroller general, who is very friendly toward Chavez. These candidates were overwhelmingly opposition figures. Additionally the PSUV and other aligned parties enjoyed access to state controlled media and openly bought votes using money from the state. I take these facts from a country assessment provided by [Freedom House.](http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2009&country=7733) They classify the country as only partly free, and have downgraded the country’s freedom rankings in recent years. As for the question of democracy there, they sum it up thusly: > [@](#): > > Venezuela is not an electoral democracy. While the act of voting is relatively free and the count is fair, the political opposition is forced to operate under extremely difficult conditions, and the separation of powers is nearly nonexistent. Now, this doesn’t contradict much of what I have read about Chavez in other places over the last few years. I know your opinion of him has changed somewhat - you were once a strong Chavez booster and moderated your tone a bit. Be that as it may, I think you need to account for your characterization of Venezuela as a democracy. After all, our understanding of democracy generally involves protection of the rights of political minorities, and that protection in Venezuela is particularly weak. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/25 "2009-10-22T14:29:49Z")
Freedom House called the 1982 El Salvadorean elections free and fair while failing to note that the ruling party has indiscriminately slaughtered thousands of people who were expected to vote for the opposition. I think you’ll have to provide documentation from an actually independent NGO rather than a nominally independent one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602/26 "2009-10-23T13:54:11Z")
Getting back to the OP: > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why? Is it just because Zelaya is a leftist? Or is he actually a “Chavez-style despot” as DeMint claimed? Or is DeMint just trying to oppose the White House on everything he possibly can? I would say the first is the answer and the third is just delicious lagniappe. As for the second, no; Zelaya himself, even if his planned nonbinding poll had gone forward and even if the measure (one of several therein) for eliminating presidential term limits had been approved, was not going to be in a position to run for re-election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-jim-demints-reaction-to-the-honduran-constitutional-crisis/514602.md?page=1)