# Explain machine guns and the 2nd Amendment to me. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380 "2012-12-18T00:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/81 "2012-12-18T23:18:14Z")
> [@Sleeping\_Synapse](#): > > I find it difficult to entertain the notion that the founding fathers of the United States had the foresight or desire for weapons that can make the mowing down of toddlers by disgruntled adolescents idiot-proof, readily available to every yokel and his social pariah progeny. Do you think that guns weren’t capable of killing children when the Constitution was written? That the ability to kill children with a gun is a recent technological development unforeseen by our forefathers? ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/82 "2012-12-19T00:13:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > **trabajamos** : Woosh. orly? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/83 "2012-12-19T00:46:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Do you think that guns weren’t capable of killing children when the Constitution was written? That the ability to kill children with a gun is a recent technological development unforeseen by our forefathers? Maybe children back then had a 1938 Superman level of invulnerability so the whole thing just never came up when they were drafting the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/84 "2012-12-19T05:32:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well, now we can cross tanks off the list. But would we still be violating Second Amendment rights? Well…intent of the framers…I don’t think the Second Amendment was intended to apply to large-scale weapons systems. Privateers, for instance, couldn’t operate without a letter of marque. It wasn’t unknown for people to own small sloops-of-war, but this wasn’t what the 2nd was written to cover. So, today, if I wanted to set up a small SAM battery on my back forty, it probably wouldn’t be permitted. [Doing a quick Google search, I found the following](http://brainshavings.com/the-right-to-keep-and-bear-what/); I haven’t read it entirely, but it seems cogent, calm, and properly documented. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/85 "2012-12-19T22:43:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Maybe children back then had a 1938 Superman level of invulnerability so the whole thing just never came up when they were drafting the Constitution? When the constitution was written, guns that could kill A CHILD existed–maybe two, if you were trained well enough to reload a musket in under 20 second before they all scattered. Guns that could allow an untrained mentally disturbed man to kill a class full of children, however, certainly did not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/86 "2012-12-19T22:54:29Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > When the constitution was written, guns that could kill A CHILD existed–maybe two, if you were trained well enough to reload a musket in under 20 second before they all scattered. > > Guns that could allow an untrained mentally disturbed man to kill a class full of children, however, certainly did not exist. Considering schools were fairly rare and one room when they existed, I’m fairly certain a crazed farmer with a bayonet attached musket could easily kill a whole class of people. Not like schools back then were built with redundant emergency exits and places to hide. That being said, this emphasis on “what technology was available back when” is irrelevant. The Founders did not want the Federal government to prohibit firearms ownership, but they cared fuck all if the States did. Mind the Founders did not intend the Bill of Rights to constrain State governments at all, and most of these issues we quibble over as constitutional issues the Founders would have considered State legislative issues outside the scope of what the Federal legislature should even be dealing with. Under the original Constitution + BOR the SCOTUS never would have ruled any local gun bans were unconstitutional, for example, because the Second Amendment didn’t even apply to the States until after the 14th Amendment (and then only in theory, it wasn’t until the 20th century any real rulings even touching on the Second Amendment were made and not until Heller the individual rights aspect was addressed.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/87 "2012-12-19T22:55:50Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Guns that could allow an untrained mentally disturbed man to kill a class full of children, however, certainly did not exist. They did - cannister shot for cannon was (still is) pretty darn deadly. So were exploding shells for howitzers, proto-gatling guns, grenades… I doubt a great many individual citizen possessed any of those back then, however. ETA: that being said, I’d agree with \*\*Bricker \*\*& **Martin Hyde** on this: it doesn’t matter whether a given specific tech was or wasn’t available back then. The Constitution+BOR are looked upon for general ideas & concepts, not details. Speech is speech even if blogs are a new thing. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/88 "2012-12-19T22:58:28Z")
The Founder’s only even need to be talked about if we’re obsessed with the 2nd Amendment, I think I’ve made a clear cut case the scant SCOTUS rulings we have touching on 2nd Amendment issues more than empower the legislature to pass pretty much any gun regulations we’d realistically ever need. If you want to ban all guns or even a class of guns, you may be out of luck, but I’ve seen little evidence that is a necessary step to have good gun control. A lot of countries with historically authoritarian governments and no historical private gun ownership have complete gun bans, then a bunch of countries have regulated gun ownership, then the U.S. has almost unregulated gun ownership. But almost no countries that allow some guns ban “all handguns” or “all semiautomatics.” Even in the UK I can buy a pistol, so the few areas the Second Amendment would constrain gun control are areas we don’t really need to get into to have effective gun control laws. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/89 "2012-12-19T23:49:16Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > When the constitution was written, guns that could kill A CHILD existed–maybe two, if you were trained well enough to reload a musket in under 20 second before they all scattered. > > Guns that could allow an untrained mentally disturbed man to kill a class full of children, however, certainly did not exist. When it was written they didn’t intend for us to use muskets to fight tyranny in the future. Every time there’s talk of limiting the 2nd amendment it stimulates gun sales. If the school system was prepared to deal with a deranged person then that would cover a variety of situations and not just those involving guns. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/90 "2012-12-20T15:35:35Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > It is my understanding that ownership of a machine gun/fully automatic weapon is heavily restricted/prohibited in the US. > > My questions are, how was this feat achieved with the 2nd Amendment in place? If you mean, doesn’t the Second Amendment technically forbid **any** federal firearms laws, [I once asked that same question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458739). The answer is that it’s been held to be authorized by the Interstate Commerce Clause. The federal government asserts a compelling interest in monitoring the movement of these weapons across state lines, their current location and possession, and passed a stamp tax on them (which at the time the government swore blue in the face was _merely_ a revenue generating device, not in any way meant to be prohibitory :rolleyes:) ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/91 "2012-12-20T16:31:35Z")
This is a bit tongue in cheek of course but y’all should know that my prototype death ray rifle is nearing completion. It can vaporize entire buildings (including schools) on a pair of D cells without requiring a recharge and weighs only 10 lbs. Can I manufacture and distribute these and sell them in gun stores? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/92 "2012-12-20T18:50:15Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > This is a bit tongue in cheek of course but y’all should know that my prototype death ray rifle is nearing completion. > > It can vaporize entire buildings (including schools) on a pair of D cells without requiring a recharge and weighs only 10 lbs. > > Can I manufacture and distribute these and sell them in gun stores? It doesn’t spit out a rapid series of projectiles, does it? Instead it emanates some kind of beam or field? Like a floodlight? And that beam can, say, kill weeds or remove old, flaking paint? Along with the underlying walls, perhaps killing the termites too? So it isn’t a rifle at all. It belongs in a home improvement store. On an end cap, right next to the battery display. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/93 "2012-12-20T18:53:19Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > Ok, not sure if that is sarcastic or not. So it IS a big deal or it isn’t? > > Why not have the same kind of checks for semi automatic weapons? I think this is where people get the slippery slope argument from. To hear some tell it, we just need THIS legislation and we will promise not to go further, then you come along and propose further. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/94 "2012-12-20T21:39:50Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > This is a bit tongue in cheek of course but y’all should know that my prototype death ray rifle is nearing completion. > > It can vaporize entire buildings (including schools) on a pair of D cells without requiring a recharge and weighs only 10 lbs. > > Can I manufacture and distribute these and sell them in gun stores? Frank Herbert wrote a short sci-fi story that resembles this. In the story, the protagonist explained, in fine technical detail, how to make such a device…on live broadcast tv. The secret is now out; pretty much anybody can make one. “It could cut the earth in half like a ripe tomato.” Will humanity survive, or will some cluck try it out? I’m betting he (and you) have just destroyed advanced human civilization. See ya in the new bronze age… ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/95 "2012-12-21T14:40:56Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > This is a bit tongue in cheek of course but y’all should know that my prototype death ray rifle is nearing completion. > > It can vaporize entire buildings (including schools) on a pair of D cells without requiring a recharge and weighs only 10 lbs. > > Can I manufacture and distribute these and sell them in gun stores? Obviously at some level of deadliness we would have to reevaluate allowing such weapons (I wouldn’t trust _army soldiers_ with your hypothetical). And your point presumably is that we have already reached that point. But if that’s the case I have to ask why we haven’t already banned semi-automatic guns, which have existed since the 1890s. Why weren’t people clamoring for their abolition back in the 1950s or '40 or '30s, or so forth? Why are they such an intolerable threat NOW more than at any time in the last century? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/96 "2012-12-21T16:16:38Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Why this argument rears its ugly head repeatedly is beyond me. By that criteria any form of speech on film, the internet, or not produced on a 18th century printing press is unprotected as well, because the Constitution did not anticipate any of that, either. It’s beyond you? All sorts of First Amendment issues have cropped up since the inventions of the printing press, telephone, film and internet. The reason the argument rears its ugly head is because the founding fathers couldn’t conceive of individual weapons that could be used to single-handedly take out an entire Revolutionary War era company of soldiers. What is beyond me is this right wing aversion to ANY sort of sensible control or restriction on who can own and carry any sort of weapon. You need a special license to drive a truck. Why not one to own a machinegun? [Speaking of which. How does that Russian guy from the Call of Duty commercial get his hands on a minigun?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d84r8gMGxFQ) ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/97 "2012-12-22T02:34:30Z")
If a machinegun license was any where close to as easy to get as a truck driver’s license I don’t think the right wing would have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/98 "2012-12-22T02:50:57Z")
> [@Mdcastleman](#): > > If a machinegun license was any where close to as easy to get as a truck driver’s license I don’t think the right wing would have a problem with it. I’ll second that. Where do I sign up? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/99 "2012-12-22T02:51:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Speaking of which. How does that Russian guy from the Call of Duty commercial get his hands on a minigun? Presumably the same way anyone else would, by buying it from a Class III dealer. A better question is how does he get the money? (Though I don’t think he personally owns everything he shoots in those videos.) ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/100 "2012-12-22T03:13:55Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > This is a bit tongue in cheek of course but y’all should know that my prototype death ray rifle is nearing completion. > > It can vaporize entire buildings (including schools) on a pair of D cells without requiring a recharge and weighs only 10 lbs. > > Can I manufacture and distribute these and sell them in gun stores? Is this a gotcha question? Such a weapon would be more comparable to an RPG then it would an “assault” rifle. You wouldn’t use it to go hunting. You wouldn’t use it to defend your home either, just like you wouldn’t use a nuke to fight off an intruder in the night. So my guess is that it wouldn’t be legal to sell them, just like you can’t sell RPGs in your local gun stores. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380.md?page=6)