# Explain machine guns and the 2nd Amendment to me. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380 "2012-12-18T00:55:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/101 "2012-12-22T04:34:22Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Is this a gotcha question? Such a weapon would be more comparable to an RPG then it would an “assault” rifle. You wouldn’t use it to go hunting. You wouldn’t use it to defend your home either, just like you wouldn’t use a nuke to fight off an intruder in the night. So my guess is that it wouldn’t be legal to sell them, just like you can’t sell RPGs in your local gun stores. Which is wonderful logic. Until you realize that the 2nd doesn’t say shit about rifles or guns (or RPGs). It’s says “arms”. Define “arms”. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/102 "2012-12-22T07:17:34Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Which is wonderful logic. Until you realize that the 2nd doesn’t say shit about rifles or guns (or RPGs). It’s says “arms”. Define “arms”. ^^This. “Arms” is defined as a weapon. Simple as that. > [@](#): > > arm 2 (ärm) > n. > > 1. A weapon, especially a firearm: troops bearing arms; ICBMs, bombs, and other nuclear arms. > > SOURCE: [Arms - definition of arms by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/arms) When the 2nd Amendment was passed there were no restrictions on what kind of weapon you could own. Want a war ship? No problem…buy a war ship if you have the means (the War of 1812 made a lot of use of privateers for instance). Cannons…whatever…you name it you could buy it if you wanted to. (NOTE: There were restrictions on WHO could own a weapon…IIRC if you were black you could not own a gun.) That said when we wonder on how the government can restrict ownership of machine guns there is no surprise or magic here. None of our rights under the Constitution are absolute. All of them are circumscribed in one fashion or another. For example free speech is not absolute (e.g. cannot yell “fire” in a crowded theater when there is none and libel/slander laws). So, there is no mystery to putting restrictions on our rights as it happens all the time. In general for our rights it seems the laws need to be as permissive as possible. A restriction needs to show a real need and be narrow in scope to address a particular issue. It would be absurd to allow private ownership of nukes even though they fall under the exceptionally broad term of “arms” (to be fair the FFs never contemplated, could not have contemplated the kinds of weapons we have today). Of course this leaves a big gray area. How restrictive can the government be? Such questions keep our courts busy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/103 "2012-12-22T07:43:20Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > Thanks for the info so far. > > So if I wanted to purchase a machine gun, I pay the $200 and get the background check. Then I can get one?? > > Are there any stats for the number of illegal fully automatic weapons in circulation despite the heavy restrictions on legal purchases? You would also have to find someone who already owned one. The manufacture or import of fully automatic weapons is illegal. Practically this can mean spending in excess of $10,000 for a gun. Its really for more for collection than utility. > [@trabajabamos](#): > > Absolutely! Which is why I’m confused whenever someone acts like banning assault rifles is akin to wiping your ass with The Constitution. We’ve done it before and it worked horribly. We didn’t get rid of the “assault weapons” that people already owned and the definition of an assault weapon came down to some very cosmetic features. > [@Sleeping\_Synapse](#): > > The fervor with which Americans cling to their constitution is akin to fundamentalism–a premise the nation has been waging wars for _off_ of its shores for decades. Our constitution is capable of amendment, it just requires a supermajority of both houses and state legislatures. Our constitution is kind of an awesome thing. That is why so many countries use it as a template for theirs. > [@Mdcastleman](#): > > The problem with licensing is a future tyrannical government or foreign invader can just look up the database and confiscate every last one. So you are assuming that democracy has broken down overnight? The only people that believe that are people who just lost an election. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > ^^This. > > “Arms” is defined as a weapon. Simple as that. God made men, Colonel Colt made them equal. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/104 "2012-12-22T07:54:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > God made men, Colonel Colt made them equal. As I noted some people seemed to be more “equal” than others. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/105 "2012-12-22T08:04:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The manufacture or import of fully automatic weapons is illegal. Confused by this. Clearly automatic weapons are manufactured in great numbers to supply the military and SWAT teams (and I would guess other law enforcement agencies). So, manufacture is legal. Who you can sell the product to is restricted. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/106 "2012-12-22T14:27:05Z")
> [@trabajabamos](#): > > Would is surprise you terribly to find that I own an a handgun and an assault rifle? Please don’t dictate my experiences or opinions to me. I’m not advocating for a repeal of the Second Amendment or a blanket ban on guns but I’d love a reasonable discourse in which gun advocates could at least acknowledge the possibility that more restrictive gun laws could have a positive effect on our society. > > I guess that’d be a matter for the courts. If restrictions on one sort of gun are constitutional, you’d think they could legally justify restrictions for all guns. Are there not legal mechanisms in place even now that can essentially strip a particular individual of their Second Amendment rights? That’s the problem. I’m pretty pro-gun and yet even I admit that _in theory_ restrictions could yield positive results. The problem is once you’ve established the precedent that possession of at least some types of guns is contrary to the common weal, where does it end? Restriction includes the number zero. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/107 "2013-01-07T20:37:06Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As I noted some people seemed to be more “equal” than others. Your mothers been telling stories about me again -old dude from braveheart. Some people’s right to free speech is greater than others despite some regulations (just ask Adelson and the Koch brothers). As a gun owner I wouldn’t mind a LOT more regulation in terms of registration and licensing but trying to limit the cosmetic of a semi-automatic rifle is silly. Frankly I’d rather restrict handguns than rifles. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Confused by this. > > Clearly automatic weapons are manufactured in great numbers to supply the military and SWAT teams (and I would guess other law enforcement agencies). > > So, manufacture is legal. Who you can sell the product to is restricted. Yes, sale to civilians is illegal. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/108 "2013-01-07T21:43:09Z")
I’d almost rather have my insane spree killer have fully automatic weapons, to be honest. Full auto fire is hard to control and hard to hit what you’re aiming at, burns through ammunition like nobody’s business, and the weapons get hot as a MFer and tend to suffer a higher rate of malfunction. Contrast that with semi-auto aimed fire being a lot easier to hit what you’re aiming at, don’t burn ammo nearly so fast, and don’t get as hot, and don’t usually malfunction nearly so much. I’d wager that if some of these spree killer types had automatic weapons, they might have not killed so many people because their guns might have overheated and/or malfunctioned, and they might have had to spend a lot more time changing magazines and possibly been more burdened with ammunition, or (better) not have brought enough along. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/109 "2013-01-07T21:52:11Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d almost rather have my insane spree killer have fully automatic weapons, to be honest. > > Full auto fire is hard to control and hard to hit what you’re aiming at, burns through ammunition like nobody’s business, and the weapons get hot as a MFer and tend to suffer a higher rate of malfunction. > > Contrast that with semi-auto aimed fire being a lot easier to hit what you’re aiming at, don’t burn ammo nearly so fast, and don’t get as hot, and don’t usually malfunction nearly so much. > > I’d wager that if some of these spree killer types had automatic weapons, they might have not killed so many people because their guns might have overheated and/or malfunctioned, and they might have had to spend a lot more time changing magazines and possibly been more burdened with ammunition, or (better) not have brought enough along. Which one is used by military combat personnel? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/110 "2013-01-07T21:57:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Which one is used by military combat personnel? I started a whole thread about the merits of full-auto fire: [When is firing full-auto a good tactic?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=469204). Long story short, it’s for the fairly rare occasions you get caught without a dedicated true machine gun when you need one. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/111 "2013-01-07T22:05:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Which one is used by military combat personnel? Riflemen trying to hit individual targets? Almost always semi-auto. At least in a well trained, competant professional force. Roughly how many bullets would you guess are fired in anger for every casualty they inflict during battle? 50? 100? Maybe 200? It’s between around 50,000 and 250,000 depending on what war and context we’re talking about. The vast majority of ammunition fired in anger isn’t intended to hit any particular target. It’s used for recon by fire, suppression, to create beaten zones. Your idea that soldiers use full auto at all times to shoot other individual targets comes from action movies, and you have no idea what makes a gun effective, how to use one, what features or capabilities are more dangerous than any other, but your lack of knowledge certainly wouldn’t make you hesitate for even a moment when it comes to enacting laws. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/112 "2013-01-07T22:28:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Your idea that soldiers use full auto at all times to shoot other individual targets I had no such idea. It was a genuine question. Your assumptions are the ones that are false. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/113 "2013-01-09T14:24:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Which one is used by military combat personnel? Seriously? You need to do some research and talk to a few vets instead of watching action movies. The US Army and USMC use aimed, single shots in most circumstances, double taps if in CCB scenarios. Their rifles don’t even go full-auto anymore, and haven’t since the adoption of the M16A2 in the early 1980s. This is from the same Army officer friend who I mentioned in another thread- he enlisted in 2008, got commissioned the same year, and did a tour in Iraq. Plus, several Marine buddies of mine over the years have confirmed the same thing about Marine training. And speaking from personal experience, you really can’t control many hand-held full-auto weapons with more kick than a submachine gun, and they’re kind of hard to keep on target for more than a 4-5 round burst. If you need automatic fire, a real machine gun or BAR style squad automatic weapon is the way to go- that extra weight and bipod/tripod really make a huge difference. Before the M16/M16A1 in the late 1960s, the M14 and M1 Garand were both semi-automatic as well- you can’t really fire a 7.62 NATO or .30-06 rifle on full-auto and even keep it pointed level. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/114 "2013-01-09T15:15:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Frank Herbert wrote a short sci-fi story that resembles this. In the story, the protagonist explained, in fine technical detail, how to make such a device…on live broadcast tv. The secret is now out; pretty much anybody can make one. “It could cut the earth in half like a ripe tomato.” Will humanity survive, or will some cluck try it out? > > I’m betting he (and you) have just destroyed advanced human civilization. See ya in the new bronze age… this is largely what has been done with nukes, yes? I mean, even North Korea has them now. and once Iran has then who knows what psychoticness Israel and Iran will go at. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/115 "2013-01-09T15:26:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As a gun owner I wouldn’t mind a LOT more regulation in terms of registration and licensing but trying to limit the cosmetic of a semi-automatic rifle is silly. Frankly I’d rather restrict handguns than rifles. I think this is what most current gun control is asking for, no? Stricter registration and licensing in general, making it harder to obtain handguns period. Kind of like the current New York City laws, but nationally. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/116 "2013-01-09T15:31:32Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > this is largely what has been done with nukes, yes? I mean, even North Korea has them now. and once Iran has then who knows what psychoticness Israel and Iran will go at. Even if you are of the opinion that governments are as unhinged as individuals are, a couple dozen entities capable of world-wide destruction is nothing compared to billions. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/117 "2013-01-09T15:35:00Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Even if you are of the opinion that governments are as unhinged as individuals are, a couple dozen entities capable of world-wide destruction is nothing compared to billions. It just means it takes a litlle longer before we all die 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/118 "2013-01-09T21:40:53Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > I think this is what most current gun control is asking for, no? Stricter registration and licensing in general, making it harder to obtain handguns period. Kind of like the current New York City laws, but nationally. It isn’t “hard” to get a handgun in NYC, it’s virtually impossible unless someone on the inside owes you a big favor. It’s about as hard as a peasant in medieval Europe to have gotten permission to own and carry a sword. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/119 "2013-01-09T23:14:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > sure, guns. Gun’s are not cannons. One shoots a projectile and the other shoots an explosive shell. That wasn’t true when the Constitution was written. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380/120 "2013-01-10T02:49:42Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > That wasn’t true when the Constitution was written. 😉 yes it was. Mortars and howitzers (with exploding shells) were used in the Revolutionary war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-machine-guns-and-the-2nd-amendment-to-me/644380.md?page=7)