# Explain Pokeman to Dad **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 6, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169 "2010-06-06T15:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/21 "2010-06-07T19:59:50Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > I hope this isn’t a hijack. Maybe Green Bean can tell me what to do with all the Pokemon cards we have stashed away from 10-12 years ago? My son started “collecting” back when they first washed up on our shores at least 12 years ago, maybe it was 14(?). Are they still used these days? They’re not still used in the official tournament format, but some people do play “unlimited,” in which any card can be used. The first question I’d have for you is what kind of condition are they in? If they’re in mint or near-mint condition, they could be worth something. Unfortunately, I know very little about card values for older sets. Perhaps someone else will have some ideas. > [@](#): > > It’s hard to believe a 7 year old can memorize dozens, even hundreds, of cards in detail until you’ve seen it. True dat. But you certainly don’t have to memorize the cards to play. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/22 "2010-06-07T20:01:54Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Oh, I hear you on thinking she knows how to play. My son frequently encounters kids at school who are _certain_ that they know how to play, but they aren’t even close to getting it right. He quickly stopped arguing with them about it, which I think was a good call from a social skills standpoint. My kid likes to tell me how to drive. :rolleyes: She’s going to make a _great_ wife some day, with that attitude! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/23 "2010-06-08T02:52:45Z")
I suspect that Magic is more complicated, if only by virtue of having been around longer and having had time to accumulate more cards. Once you have that every card can potentially change the rules of the game, sometimes fundamentally so, the complexity of the game grows combinatorically with the number of cards, and so even a small difference in number of cards can lead to large differences in complexity. As for worrying that she’s making bad trades, there are probably enough folks who enjoy the cards just for the sake of the pretty pictures that the artwork is a significant determinant of the card value. But the real question just needs to be, if you pay five or ten bucks, or however much, for a pack of cards for her, is she getting five or ten bucks worth of enjoyment out of them? If so, then don’t worry about her making bad trades. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/24 "2010-06-08T15:29:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I suspect that Magic is more complicated, if only by virtue of having been around longer and having had time to accumulate more cards. Once you have that every card can potentially change the rules of the game, sometimes fundamentally so, the complexity of the game grows combinatorically with the number of cards, and so even a small difference in number of cards can lead to large differences in complexity. But how many cards are “legal” at a given time? (I’m asking–I don’t know the answer.) In Pokemon, only the last maybe 9-13 sets are tournament legal, and people are generally encouraged to play within that format, so yes, that makes it much simpler. > [@](#): > > As for worrying that she’s making bad trades, there are probably enough folks who enjoy the cards just for the sake of the pretty pictures that the artwork is a significant determinant of the card value. But the real question just needs to be, if you pay five or ten bucks, or however much, for a pack of cards for her, is she getting five or ten bucks worth of enjoyment out of them? If so, then don’t worry about her making bad trades. I disagree. A Luxray GL Lv.X runs about 60 bucks these days–if you can find one. It would be just plain foolish for her to trade it for an Electivire FB Lv.X. My suggestion: Let her freely trade any commons or uncommons–except for any Trainers and energy.\* Hold on to as many of those as you can, because if she starts to play for real, she will need them badly. Cull her rares and ultra-rares and look them up at one of the big online retailers to get a sense of what they’re worth. Then make sure she knows how to tell a rare from an uncommon from a common. Let her trade the rares that aren’t worth much as she wishes, but I’d suggest holding back the more valuable rares and trading them at league where the trades can be overseen by a league leader or someone else who’s knowledgable about the value of the cards. To tell what rarity it is, look at the bottom right of the card between the set symbol and the collector number. There will be a symbol: Circle: Common Diamond: Uncommon Star: Rare Silver star: Ultra-rare - “Trainers” includes Trainers, Supporters, Tools, Stadiums and Technical Machines. They all have generally the same layout, so they’re easy to spot. She should also keep any special energies. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/25 "2010-06-08T16:50:49Z")
I’m not worried about her making bad trades. **Green Bean** , I watched part of that video and now I want to play the game! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/26 "2010-06-08T17:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > But how many cards are “legal” at a given time? (I’m asking–I don’t know the answer.) > > In Pokemon, only the last maybe 9-13 sets are tournament legal, and people are generally encouraged to play within that format, so yes, that makes it much simpler. Magic has multiple tournament formats, plus of course casual play that doesn’t have any tournament restrictions. Some tournaments allow only cards from recent sets, while others allow cards of any age. Wouldn’t cards cycling out of tournament legality limit the value cards can have? If a card won’t be playable in tournaments a few years hence, it doesn’t make much sense to pay very much for it. In Magic, the existence of those any-age tournaments helps to keep the value of old cards like Black Lotus (the most expensive Magic card, worth thousands of dollars) up, since the top players in those formats will want those cards to help them win. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/27 "2010-06-08T18:13:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wouldn’t cards cycling out of tournament legality limit the value cards can have? Absolutely. > [@](#): > > If a card won’t be playable in tournaments a few years hence, it doesn’t make much sense to pay very much for it. In Magic, the existence of those any-age tournaments helps to keep the value of old cards like Black Lotus (the most expensive Magic card, worth thousands of dollars) up, since the top players in those formats will want those cards to help them win. This is also absolutely true. And many people, including myself, see this as a very good thing. It means that a tier-1 Pokemon deck will be a lot more affordable than a tier-1 Magic deck. This makes the game more accessible to more people. And all evidence would suggest that this is intentional on TPCi’s part. As I understand it, a competitive Magic deck would start at about $1000 if you bought the cards retail, and could go up to many thousands in value. Would you agree with that? A top-tier Pokemon deck, purchased retail, would be a hell of a lot cheaper. I just checked [bebessearch.com](http://bebessearch.com). They have typical decklists\* for most of the popular decks with estimated retail prices for each. I looked at the top 9\*\*, all of which have been popular and successful in tournaments over the past year. The retail prices ranged from $152 to $283 with an average price of $210. It’s funny–I often have parents complaining that cards get rotated out, saying “they just want me to buy more cards!” I explain to them that that’s one part of it. The Pokemon Company, International is a business after all. But I also explain that the practice actually makes the game far cheaper than comparable CCGs. And this satisfies most people I can definitely see the appeal of Magic’s practices here, but I feel that the way TPCi does it is better for Pokemon TCG itself. - Note that these decklists aren’t necessarily the ones that win tournaments. They represent a standard version of the various combinations. Winning decklists will get tweaked a bit. \*\* I omitted the tenth because it’s unusually cheap and was never that viable in tournaments anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/28 "2010-06-08T18:42:01Z")
Just for giggles, I priced out my current tournament deck (Gyarados). It came to $180. And it includes the $60 Luxray GL Lv.X. A perfectly viable version of the deck can be made without that card. Omitting it and its supporting cards cuts the price in half. Add in some more reasonably priced cards to replace it and you end up with a very good deck for around 100 bucks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/29 "2010-06-08T20:08:44Z")
> [@](#): > > As I understand it, a competitive Magic deck would start at about $1000 if you bought the cards retail, and could go up to many thousands in value. Would you agree with that? I’m not big on the trading, but that sounds high to me (at least, for a recent-cards format). A tournament Magic deck is 60 cards (can theoretically be more, but in practice almost never is), and there aren’t all that many cards over $10 (in fact, they sell pre-constructed decks where you know exactly what you’re getting, which puts a hard cap on the price of many cards). Plus, a fair chunk of those cards will be basic lands, which are, for all practical purposes, free. Now, many thousands of dollars is certainly possible for the non-age-restricted formats, given that Black Lotus alone is worth thousands of dollars, and there are other cards that are not far behind. But I don’t think those tournaments are nearly as common. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/30 "2010-06-08T20:14:29Z")
The only time a Magic deck is going to cost that much is if you’re playing vintage. Normal tournaments wouldn’t require nearly that much money. Go look at some recent tournament-winning decks and most of them you could get for around a hundred dollars (maybe a little over that). ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/31 "2010-06-08T23:07:13Z")
Yeah, I was definitely referring to the format with the older cards. I just want to say that I am definitely not criticizing any of Magic’s formats even if some of them require very expensive decks. I think having that kind of format variation is cool. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169/32 "2010-06-08T23:49:56Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > **Green Bean** , I watched part of that video and now I want to play the game! I have no real deisire to play the game, but those videos are well done. Brian [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-pokeman-to-dad/542169.md?page=1)