# Explain Ravens-Browns Ending? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 31, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980 "2018-12-31T11:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/21 "2019-01-03T17:17:19Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > In 1979 (I believe), the New York Football Giants were winning a game late in the season against the Philadelphia Eagles. With very little time left on the clock, the Giants merely needed to kneel down two times and the game was over. > > On the second play, for reasons that remain shrouded in mystery, they attempted a hand-off instead. The ball was fumbled, the Eagles scooped it up and ran it back for a game-winning TD. In Philly, to this day, the play is referred to as the “Miracle at the Meadowlands.” In New York, it’s only referred to with swear words. Philly went on to finish the season 9-7 and got a wild card playoff spot. > > Since that time, it has been a rare occurrence indeed that any professional or college team has failed to understand the importance of properly kneeling out the game. To be fair the “kneeldown” wasn’t technically a legal play at that time (the NFL apparently didn’t change the rules to legitimize it until 1987). As t[he Wikipedia article on the game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_at_the_Meadowlands) notes, the typical way to run out the clock back then was either for the QB to take the snap and drop on the ground until touched by a defensive player. There were apparently a variety of reasons why the Giants coach called for a handoff, and ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/22 "2019-01-03T17:31:35Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It’s basically the same thing as not playing the bottom of the 9th inning in baseball when the home team is winning. Pfft! That’s a wimpy way to win. Embarrass us, we deserve it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/23 "2019-01-03T17:35:28Z")
Feh, that’s what happens when I post while on the phone. How I’d meant to finish that was “There were apparently a variety of reasons why the Giants coach called for a handoff, and a lot of dissent over the play, even as it was called.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/24 "2019-01-03T17:54:33Z")
Sure, but a handoff to a running back is, and has always been, considered a pretty safe play. That one was a complete fluke, but people have been laughing at Joe Pisarcik for it ever since. Anyway, the Victory Formation \*is \*safe. What would be even better is if the defense could simply concede and not go through with the annoying charade, like a baseball team can now just concede an intentional walk. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/25 "2019-01-03T18:26:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Anyway, the Victory Formation \*is \*safe. What would be even better is if the defense could simply concede and not go through with the annoying charade, like a baseball team can now just concede an intentional walk. From what I can tell from the rulebook, there is no codified requirement for the defense to be on the field at all; the requirements for a minimum number of players on the field are all on the offensive side of the ball (FYI, you have to have at least 7 players on the LOS, and never more than 11). When it comes to a question of a minimum number of players required for the defense, that is 100% the referee’s decision (Rule 15-1-3: “The Referee’s decisions upon all matters not specifically placed under the jurisdiction of other officials by rule are final”). So if the ref doesn’t care, the defense can just leave. Or the ref can require they come back out of the locker room to defend, say, a PAT, like at the end of the NFC Divisional game between the Vikings and Saints last season. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/26 "2019-01-03T18:32:39Z")
The Miracle at the Meadowlands was Giants QB Joe Pisarcik trying to hand off to Larry Csonka with just a few seconds left. Csonka thought that Pisarcik was going to kneel and wasn’t expecting the handoff; when the ball came loose, Eagles cornerback Herm Edwards (yes, that Herm Edwards) picked up the ball and ran it in for the winning touchdown. Here’s a video and analysis of the play: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hfOiY5MhqHA/maxresdefault.jpg "#3 Miracle at the Meadowlands | NFL Films | Top 10 Worst Plays") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfOiY5MhqHA) ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/27 "2019-01-03T22:51:26Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It’s basically the same thing as not playing the bottom of the 9th inning in baseball when the home team is winning. Eh, it’s not impossible to lose the game despite being in victory formation, though it IS incredibly rare. It’s utterly impossible for a visiting team to win when down after the top of the ninth inning. But anything that makes snoozefests like baseball games end quicker is A-OK in my book (in person viewing notwithstanding). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/28 "2019-01-04T02:18:53Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It’s basically the same thing as not playing the bottom of the 9th inning in baseball when the home team is winning. There is an episode of an obscure-ish series called _Leverage_ in which Elliot tells Hardison, “_I hate baseball_”. Hardison takes exception to this, even after Elliot explains that baseball is one of the very few games where it is impossible for the defense to score points (see also Cricket). ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/29 "2019-01-04T07:04:07Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > There is an episode of an obscure-ish series called _Leverage_ in which Elliot tells Hardison, “_I hate baseball_”. Hardison takes exception to this, even after Elliot explains that baseball is one of the very few games where it is impossible for the defense to score points (see also Cricket). I would argue that the defense can’t score points in basketball either. If you’re in position to score a basket then you’re not on defense… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/30 "2019-01-04T13:45:37Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Eh, it’s not impossible to lose the game despite being in victory formation, though it IS incredibly rare. I’ve never seen or even heard of it, have you? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/31 "2019-01-04T14:25:26Z")
The Browns suck. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/32 "2019-01-04T14:45:05Z")
Basketball doesn’t really have a distinct offense and defense. Or, by any standard by which it does, you’d also say that a defender making an interception and running it in for a touchdown has turned into an offense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/33 "2019-01-04T14:55:07Z")
I think the point is a bit confused - baseball and cricket are the only two major ball sports where the defense controls the ball. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/34 "2019-01-04T17:33:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’ve never seen or even heard of it, have you? [Just this season.](https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/9/19/17878958/california-hs-football-quarterback-kneel-strip-la-jolla-scripps-ranch) In the NFL, I have never heard of it, but it DOES happen at lower levels of play. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/35 "2019-01-04T17:39:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Basketball doesn’t really have a distinct offense and defense. Or, by any standard by which it does, you’d also say that a defender making an interception and running it in for a touchdown has turned into an offense. There was a time before American football teams were formed in squads, so the distinction between offense and defense was only a matter of who had possession. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/36 "2019-01-04T17:50:12Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > Seems like the wimp’s way to get into the play-offs. What do you mean “wimp’s?” It’s how 99%, if not 100%, of football teams do it these days. Would it be more “manly” to risk a turnover? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/37 "2019-01-04T17:52:20Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s call clock management, and it’s fundamental football at all levels. Complaining that a team used time correctly is like complaining that basketball is much easier for tall people. Good teams/coaches are often measured on how well they manage the clock. Correct. The wimps are the teams that take a knee before halftime rather than try to score. At the end of the game, if you’re winning, you want the clock to run out. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980/38 "2019-01-04T19:35:33Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Correct. The wimps are the teams that take a knee before halftime rather than try to score. At the end of the game, if you’re winning, you want the clock to run out. That’s debatable but an argument can be made that you want to go into halftime with the best score you can, to make it easier to regain a lead or make it more difficult for an opponent to make a comeback. Though I’d argue that if the ball gets punted to you with 15 seconds on the clock and you’re at your own 5 yard line the smart thing to do is kneel it. If something goes wrong you risk a safety or a turnover easily turned into a TD and there’s little-to-no chance of actually getting any points in that field position with so little time left. Anyone who went for desperation points in that situation would be rightfully ridiculed and it’s not “wimpy” to do the only non-stupid thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-ravens-browns-ending/826980.md?page=1)