# Explain the 'Catholics aren't Christian' thing again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812 "2016-12-15T21:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/101 "2016-12-23T16:43:13Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Confusion _is_ understandable, but “I don’t understand the beliefs of those Christians over there; therefore they are not Christians at all” is a bit of a stretch. I am not talking about instances where the beliefs are not understood. I know perfectly well that in theory Roman Catholics only ask the saints and Mary to intercede with God on their behalf. In practice, however, they go beyond this. “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” is one thing. “Mary, keep my children safe” is verging on something else. > [@](#): > > The Catholics have been accused, with some justification, of arrogance over the whole “one true church” schtick, but not even they have tried to claim that non-Catholic Christians are not Christians at all. [I’m not sure that’s quite true in all cases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Feeney), although official teaching condemns the claim. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/102 "2016-12-23T19:01:07Z")
And of course, then you get into the question of what’s more relevant, what the Church teaches, or what is done by people who identify as members of the church. While it’s fair to point out such inconsistencies where they occur, it can lead to absurdities in the extreme: For instance, the sedevacantists (discussed in a different thread) call themselves Catholic, and they say that there is currently no valid Pope. Is it then fair to say that “Catholics believe that the Pope is invalid”? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/103 "2016-12-23T22:58:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Incidentally, that specific passage (John 3:16) is only particularly famous because of one crazy guy who was really fond of it and who eventually became a murderer. Dunno who the “one crazy guy” was, but I rather think he was fond of that particular passage because it was already famous. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/104 "2016-12-24T00:22:39Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Dunno who the “one crazy guy” was [This guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollen_Stewart), who went to jail on kidnapping charges, not murder. (The wikipedia article is way more concise than the two SD articles it cites.) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/105 "2017-01-02T01:53:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I came across this comment on an article: > > Since I’m not religious, religion sometimes baffles me. I’ve heard the claim that Catholics aren’t Christians before. ‘They use a different Bible.’ But isn’t the Roman Catholic Church the ‘original’ Christian church? (i.e., the church that grew out of the Christian cults?) Wasn’t there a time (Dark Ages?) when the Catholic church was all there is, and the areas it controlled were collectively called ‘Christendom’? ISTM that the Protestant/Catholic thing is the same as the Shia/Sunni thing. Different sects of the same religion; Christian in the former case, and Muslim in the latter. > > So what’s the deal? The Church of Rome is a breakaway cult from Orthodox Christianity, centered on the Pontiff in Roma, Italy. It eventually took over Western Europe. The Protestants were a rebellion against the Church of Rome, that sort of fragmented into several heretical cults instead of reconnecting with Orthodox Christians in the East. Both Catholics and Protestants, therefore, fail at being the One True Church. This doesn’t stop them from pretending, and inventing fabulous histories and justifications. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/106 "2017-01-02T02:03:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The Church of Rome is a breakaway cult from Orthodox Christianity, centered on the Pontiff in Roma, Italy. It eventually took over Western Europe. The Protestants were a rebellion against the Church of Rome, that sort of fragmented into several heretical cults instead of reconnecting with Orthodox Christians in the East. > > Both Catholics and Protestants, therefore, fail at being the One True Church. This doesn’t stop them from pretending, and inventing fabulous histories and justifications. Similarly, the Catholic churches are all founded on the heresies promulgated by Peter, who destroyed Judeo-Christianity in the name of spreading a bastardized pseudo-gospel to the Gentiles. Similarly, Judeo-Christianity, with its continuation of Sabbath observance, circumcision, and observance of dietary laws, was a heresy in the face of the true gospel as preached by Josh, the Anointed One, who demanded nothing less than complete renunciation of worldly goods and devotion to the coming Kingdom of God. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/107 "2017-01-02T02:29:39Z")
Did you mean to say the heresies promulgated by Paul? Peter wasn’t all that big on spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles, and little remains of his teachings. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/108 "2017-01-02T02:51:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Did you mean to say the heresies promulgated by Paul? Peter wasn’t all that big on spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles, and little remains of his teachings. Right. Paul. Got my heretics confused. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/109 "2017-01-02T04:17:38Z")
Well, a lot of the arguments about which Church is right were about political authority and its pretension to “legitimacy,” historically. Orthodox Christianity descends from the state religion of Rome–_not_ the city in Italy, but the empire that would eventually dwindle down to a few Greek-speaking regions and later be conquered by the Ottomans. It was made the state religion of the Roman Empire by a military dictator who was himself supposedly a sun-worshipper, supposedly because he had a vision telling him the Christian cross would help him conquer. Before that, it was a countercultural new religious movement (actually frighteningly popular in Egypt) that mashed up bits of mystery religion, maybe a pinch of vaguely Iranian dualism, and some pretensions to Hebrew roots. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/110 "2017-01-03T06:45:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Orthodox Christianity descends from the state religion of Rome–_not_ the city in Italy, but the empire that would eventually dwindle down to a few Greek-speaking regions and later be conquered by the Ottomans. It was made the state religion of the Roman Empire by a military dictator who was himself supposedly a sun-worshipper, supposedly because he had a vision telling him the Christian cross would help him conquer . . . Derleth gets his heretics confused, and you get your emperors confused. Christianity was made the state religion of the Empire by Theodosius in 380 CE. Constantine, whose career you so admirably summarise, merely tolerated it and patronised it, but did not make it the state religion. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/111 "2017-01-03T07:14:35Z")
I thought Constantine made it the state religion, but it wasn’t until Justinian I that any other religions than Christianity were forbidden? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/112 "2017-01-03T07:46:48Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Derleth gets his heretics confused, and you get your emperors confused. Christianity was made the state religion of the Empire by Theodosius in 380 CE. Constantine, whose career you so admirably summarise, merely tolerated it and patronised it, but did not make it the state religion. Oh, that makes sense. Some quick reading indicates you’re right. Ignorance corrected. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812/113 "2017-01-03T08:24:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I thought Constantine made it the state religion, but it wasn’t until Justinian I that any other religions than Christianity were forbidden? Nope. Constantine extended toleration to Christianity, and also favoured it with a large degree of patronage- building churches, granting tax exemptions, etc. But other religions were equally tolerated, and many were patronised. As Derleth noted, there’s some evidence that Constantine himself continued to patronise the cult of Sol Invictus, and the Roman state continued to erect pagan temples as well as Christian churches On the whole, though, Christianity enjoyed more patronage than any other religion, and began to attract large numbers of converts, while the older Greco-Roman polytheistic religions went into decline. Under later emperors civic pagan rituals began to be curtailed and eventually abandoned, the Altar of Victory was removed from the Senate House in Rome, etc, etc. There was then a bit of see-sawing between toleration and discouragement of traditional paganism depending on the personal preferences of various emperors until Theodosius declared Christianity the state religion, banned various pagan practices, extinguished the eternal fire in the Temple of Vesta, disbanded the Vestal Virgins, etc. This was about 70 or 80 years after Constantine’s conversion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-catholics-arent-christian-thing-again/774812.md?page=5)