# Explain the Death Panels thing to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2010, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099 "2010-01-23T10:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/1 "2010-01-23T10:35:44Z")
Seems like that is the biggest lie the Libs like to bring up when talking about all of the Republican lies related to UHC … correct me if I’m wrong, please. My recollection is that it took off last fall when all of the congresscritters had townhalls back in their district. At the time there were all kinds of plans running thru the various committees and that at least one of them “required” end of life counselling. Is the “required” part wrong? While admittedly far short of a Death Panel in the classic sense … why require that unless you’d want to achieve something close to it. Unfortunately, for them, many of the congresscritters had no idea what was in the bills … see what happens when you don’t control the attendees and questions at a townhall. If it wasn’t required, one little option among so many drafts could easily have been defended. Have any of the evil Republicans ever defined Death Panel and said that it is (at the time) or was in the plans. I will admit that a friend of mine told me his parents thought there really would be Death Panels. No doubt it was an effective tactic … which is why the Libs are so outraged. FWIW, I wish that neither side did those kinds of things. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/2 "2010-01-23T10:55:44Z")
From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panels#Rationing_of_care) : > [@](#): > > Palin’s death panel remarks were based on the ideas of Betsy McCaughey.[61] During 2009, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin wrote against alleged rationing, referring to what by her interpretation was a “downright evil” “death panel” in current reform legislation known as H.R. 3200 Section 1233. However, Palin supported similar end of life discussion and advance directives for patients in 2008.[62] Defenders of the plan indicated that the proposed legislation H.R. 3200 would allow Medicare for the first time to cover patient-doctor consultations about end-of-life planning, including discussions about drawing up a living will or planning hospice treatment. Patients could seek out such advice on their own, but would not be required to. The provision would limit Medicare coverage to one consultation every five years.[63] Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., who sponsored the H.R. 3200 end of life counseling provision, said the measure would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option, and called references to death panels or euthanasia “mind-numbing”.[64] Republican Senator Johnny Isakson, who co-sponsored a 2007 end-of-life counseling provision, called the euthanasia claim “nuts”.[65] Analysts who examined the end-of-life provision Palin cited agree that Palin’s claim is incorrect.[66][67][68][69][70] According to TIME and ABC, Palin and Betsy McCaughey made false euthanasia claims.[71][72] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/3 "2010-01-23T14:08:35Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Is the “required” part wrong? Yes, it is wrong. Permitting Medicare to pay for such counseling is not the same as requiring it. > [@](#): > > While admittedly far short of a Death Panel in the classic sense … why require that unless you’d want to achieve something close to it. As you can see, this argument is no longer functional if counseling is not mandatory. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/4 "2010-01-23T15:09:48Z")
Here is the language that was proposed: > [@](#): > > ``Advance Care Planning Consultation > > `(hhh) (1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following: `(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to. > `(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses. `(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy. > `(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965). `(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title. > `(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include— `(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes; > `(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and `(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy). > `(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State— `(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and > `(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii). `(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that— > `(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State; `(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment; > `(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and `(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/5 "2010-01-23T15:12:27Z")
Don’t forget Palin’s insinuation that her someone else might make the decision about whether or not her Downs’ Syndrome child would be allowed to live. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/6 "2010-01-23T15:19:08Z")
Palin’s quote was more than an insinuation, it was a flat out statement that Obama wanted to kill her baby. > [@Palin](#): > > The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil. There’s also the (long since removed) claim by the _Investor’s Business Daily_ that a national health care plan like the one in the UK would have killed Stephen Hawking because he’s crippled. > [@Investor's Business Daily](#): > > The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof, are legendary. The stories of people dying on a waiting list or being denied altogether read like a horror script.. > > People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless. Which is not only an incredibly bizarre claim for thinking national health care would kill cripples, but because Hawking happens to be British. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/7 "2010-01-23T16:27:56Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Seems like that is the biggest lie the Libs like to bring up when talking about all of the Republican lies related to UHC … correct me if I’m wrong, please. > > My recollection is that it took off last fall when all of the congresscritters had townhalls back in their district. At the time there were all kinds of plans running thru the various committees and that at least one of them “required” end of life counselling. > > Is the “required” part wrong? While admittedly far short of a Death Panel in the classic sense … why require that unless you’d want to achieve something close to it. You are entirely right. Republicans pointed to the phrase “end of life counseling” and claimed this as proof that the health care bill was a plan to commit mass murder. In reality, end of life counseling is counseling about the end of life, a fact which is fairly obvious to everyone except Republicans. In other words, when a patient reaches a point where death in certain or likely, they can discuss the various options that are open to them. End of life counseling has no more connection to death panels than it has to emu farming, and the Republicans were telling outright lies when they claimed it did. Needless to say, our current free-market approach to health care does include death panels. When a person with insurance becomes dangerously ill and requires an expensive treatment, the insurance company decides whether they get coverage and live or are denied coverage and die. Sounds like a death panel to me. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/8 "2010-01-23T16:53:46Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Explain the Death Panels thing to me Timmy, I didn’t want to have to be the one to tell you this, I really wish your parents had. But remember your dog that ran away? Well, it didn’t run away, it died. And your goldfish that ran away? It also died. And your aunt Elda, she didn’t run away either, she died. You see Timmy, it’s the sad reality of life that God’s Great Creatures all die. We are born, we live a bit, then we die. It’s what we do. All of us, including me, and including you. We are all going to die. Many of us will be _lucky_ enough to reach old age before we die. And as we pass 70, and 80, and into our 90s, our bodies will begin to breakdown in ways you didn’t think were possible. Actions you take for granted today, like chewing, swallowing, blinking, won’t work any more. The problem is that medical science is more than happy to find ways around each of your new found problems, but ultimately, you will die. What does this have to do with death panels? Well, when you pass 90, and your health continues to deteriorate, the person paying your medical bills will eventually ask, “wouldn’t he be better off if we let him die, instead of putting him through another operation to deal with the solution to the last problem?” That is a death panel. Some times it’s the family members, some times it’s nursing home, some times it’s the hospital, some times it’s the insurance company, and some times it’s the North Korean government. As you approach death, there will always be another medical procedure you could undertake. Most of the time you’ll die during it, but if you happen to survive, there will be another procedure to deal with the problems caused by the previous one. If at some point, a person [or legal entity] decides enough is enough, that person/thing becomes a death panel. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/9 "2010-01-23T16:57:56Z")
It was a complete and utter lie in two senses: 1. Palin used Death Panel in the sense of a panel that decided who would receive care based on their value to society. This is completely made up and has nothing at all to do with the end of life counseling provision in the bill. Nothing, nada, zip. Just a complete lie. A sue someone for slander and win sort of lie. 2. There was a provision in the bill to allow doctors to be reimbursed for end of life counseling. The same language had been supported before by both Democrats and Republicans. This was in no way a death panel. There was no _panel_ at all and the patient had complete say over end of life care. The only small, possible glimmer of anything resembling something to be concerned about was that doctors would be evaluated on how many of their patients had received an offer for end of life counseling. If this was a concern, it could easily have been addressed by suggesting the incentive be removed. Instead, Palin lied, Fox repeated and amplified the lie, and the teabaggers made Palin a hero for lying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/10 "2010-01-23T17:01:06Z")
Yeah, but you’re neglecting the slippery slope. One day you have End of Life Counseling, and then next thing you know, you’re killing babies! ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/11 "2010-01-23T17:06:02Z")
WTF do these people who accept the ‘death panel’ argument think happens everywhere else in the developed world, that we live in democracies and vote for that, that we think ‘death panels’ are acceptable and the way forward. How fucking stupid do people have to be for this stuff to make sense? I mean there’s parochial and provincial and thenb there’s completely retarded. I suppose these are the same people who thought Saddam was involved in 9/11, had WMD, etc. And, for fucks sake, what on earth is “rationing”? Jesus Christ, it’s like dumb American tourist cliche except he hasn’t left home. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/12 "2010-01-23T17:07:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, but you’re neglecting the slippery slope. One day you have End of Life Counseling, and then next thing you know, you’re killing babies! Babies die too, lots of them, in horrible and unimaginable ways. At some point during the treatment of a preemie someone might ask if that next procedure is really necessary. Sucks to admit, but that’s how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/13 "2010-01-23T17:08:07Z")
This is part of my recent thinking about whether US conservatives have any morals. Even if you think that UHC or the proposed bill are a bad idea, shouldn’t you be repulsed by your side using such sleazy tactics? Instead, conservative are cackling with delight that Palin found such a good way to oppose UHC and want to reward her with a chance to run for President. A news organization has hired her, knowing that she lied. What has happened to the America I grew up in? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/14 "2010-01-23T17:25:34Z")
Oh, Sarah, your “death panels” comment should’ve died a merciful death even the Pope would approve of, instead, your enemies are keeping it alive way beyond any need just to prolong its suffering, but then complain endlessly about its being alive. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/15 "2010-01-23T17:30:43Z")
Death Panels were named the [biggest lie of 2009](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/dec/18/politifact-lie-year-death-panels/) by Politifact (and I want to say MediaMatters as well…or some site of note). Better, Palin in the face of criticism over this lie didn’t back down. [She re-iterated it](http://mediamatters.org/blog/200912230019). > [@](#): > > REPORT: The media have debunked the death panels – more than 40 times over > > Numerous media outlets have now debunked right-wing claims that the House health care reform bill would encourage euthanasia of the elderly, including Sarah Palin’s claim – forwarded by the conservative media – that the bill would create a “death panel” and the related claim – initiated by Betsy McCaughey – that the bill would “absolutely require” that seniors on Medicare undergo end-of-life counseling “that will tell them how to end their life sooner.” Indeed, Media Matters for America has identified more than 40 instances of media reporting that these claims are false. > > SOURCE: [http://mediamatters.org/research/200908150001](http://mediamatters.org/research/200908150001) This one is shooting fish in a barrel and thus all the more stunning that it got (has) the traction it does. May as well say the sun rises in the west. ETA: [For fun Jon Stewart ripping on Betsy McCaughey on this issue.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkOanOj8GM) ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/16 "2010-01-23T17:43:38Z")
If the government was paying for your health care and you were terminally ill, they would have an incentive for wanting you to die as soon as possible. This scares people. The Republicans took the death panel thing too far (like usual), but I do think it was a legitimate issue for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/17 "2010-01-23T17:55:34Z")
> [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > If the government was paying for your health care and you were terminally ill, they would have an incentive for wanting you to die as soon as possible. > > This scares people. The Republicans took the death panel thing too far (like usual), but I do think it was a legitimate issue for discussion. If you intentionally shorten someones life isn’t that murder? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/18 "2010-01-23T18:00:22Z")
> [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > If the government was paying for your health care and you were terminally ill, they would have an incentive for wanting you to die as soon as possible. > > This scares people. The Republicans took the death panel thing too far (like usual), but I do think it was a legitimate issue for discussion. Well…we have finite resources. Would be nice if they are infinite but they are not. Making decisions on what health care should be provided happens now. Today. Your insurance company may deny you coverage they deem inappropriate. This has traction because while people may understand a casual conversation over whether it makes sense to provide a 99 year-old guy with a million dollar procedure they figure if they are the 99 year-old guy they want everything humanly possible done to keep them alive. Thing is, the “death panels” were nothing more than a way for patients to have a discussion with their doctors on end-of-life issues. This makes sense! As noted above we ALL die! Choosing how things should proceed when that day rolls around…per YOUR wishes…makes a world of sense. This was something that had bi-partisan support (really truly because it is brain dead obvious makes sense) till Reps found it could be a wedge issue. All this really does is throw into sharp relief the staggering gullibility of a shocking large percentage of the population (note repeated debunking of this in mass media yet it persists). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/19 "2010-01-23T18:04:09Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > If you intentionally shorten someones life isn’t that murder? In this discussion that NEVER happens. Withholding treatment is not the same as shortening someone’s life. My dad had a “do not resuscitate” (DNR) order. He had cancer, was in his late 80’s and going through never ending treatments. He died in his sleep in the hospital. Per HIS wishes the hospital let him go. Did the hospital murder him? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099/20 "2010-01-23T18:17:08Z")
> [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > If the government was paying for your health care and you were terminally ill, they would have an incentive for wanting you to die as soon as possible. > > This scares people. The Republicans took the death panel thing too far (like usual), but I do think it was a legitimate issue for discussion. BUT THERE ARE NO DEATH PANELS IN THE BILL. Never were. They didn’t take it too far, they made it up. The doctor counseling was before the fact to set up a living will so that the patients wishes were known. There is nothing in the bill(s) that changed existing practice. They made it up. They lied. They figure y’all were too stupid to notice. In some cases they were right. Sure, to save money someone may decide to withhold treatment. Today it could be the insurance company. In the bill before congress it will still be the insurance company because there is no public option. In the future, if there is a public option, then there might, possibly, may be a govt bureaucrat involved in the process instead of an insurance company bureaucrat, but let’s save that discussion until then. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-death-panels-thing-to-me/526099.md?page=2)