# Explain the debate about natural immunity wrt having had Covid-19 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [October 14, 2021, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459 "2021-10-14T03:59:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/21 "2021-10-15T17:30:48Z")
Emerging science appears to be that natural immunity is a lot more effective (in particular, longer lasting) than vaccines. ISTM that public health people are reluctant to publicize this fact, since there are benefits of being vaccinated even for people who have natural immunity, and - perhaps even moreso - because on a large scale public health level, it’s important to encourage vaccinations. See e.g. [Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital](https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital) One theory as to why Israel was so hard hit by a second wave of infections despite being one of the most highly vaccinated countries in the world is that they were too far ahead of the curve. They got vaccinated very early on, so by the time the highly infectious Delta variant came around, much of the vaccine-acquired immunity had worn off, and they were ripe for another round. By contrast, countries which were slower off the mark vaccine-wise had more recently-vaccinated populations when the Delta variant hit, and were thus more resistent. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/22 "2021-10-15T17:51:52Z")
You know what’s even better than natural immunity? Natural immunity plus a vaccine. I really and truly don’t understand why people are reluctant to get a free, safe, effective vaccine, that can safe your life and the lives of your loved ones. In any case, I’d better bow out of this thread, because no good can come of my continued interaction with anti-vaxxers. OP – did you get the answers you need? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/23 "2021-10-15T18:56:03Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > Reading only one-sided popular opinion pieces instead of actual hard science papers and footnotes may tend to reduce critical thinking ability. Case in point-your posts on this subject. > [@Turble](#): > > I’m ready to fly my freak flag … I might even buy a t-shirt. Thank you very much. If you could make the lettering big and neon bright, it would help the rest of us avoid you like…the plague. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/24 "2021-10-15T19:37:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you very much. If you could make the lettering big and neon bright, it would help the rest of us avoid you like…the plague. While you’re probably well aware, in case you forgot, this is the person who was mad at the mandates chasing out some nurse, not at the nurse for refusing to be vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/25 "2021-10-15T20:59:47Z")
"…There are several potential reasons that memory B cells produced by **natural infection might be expected to outperform those produced by mRNA vaccines** , the researchers say. …It is possible that the body responds differently to viruses that enter through the respiratory tract than those that are injected into our upper arms. Or perhaps an intact virus goads the immune system in a way that the lone spike protein represented by the **vaccines simply cannot**. Then again, maybe it’s that the virus persists in the naturally infected for weeks, giving the body more time to mount a robust response. **The vaccine, on the other hand, is flushed out of the body mere days after triggering the desired immune response**." …Vaccination produces greater amounts of circulating antibodies than natural infection. But a new study suggests that not all memory B cells are created equal. While vaccination gives rise to memory B cells that evolve over a few weeks, **natural infection births memory B cells that continue to evolve over several months, producing highly potent antibodies adept at eliminating even viral variants.**" > **[Natural infection versus vaccination: Differences in COVID antibody responses...](https://www.rockefeller.edu/news/30919-natural-infection-versus-vaccination-differences-in-covid-antibody-responses-emerge/)** > > This news story has been updated to reflect the publication of the study, previously available on BioRxiv, in a peer-reviewed journal. Hope for a future without fear of COVID-19 comes down to circulating antibodies and memory B cells. Unlike... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/26 "2021-10-15T21:22:37Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > So, it appears to me that millions of people had already had Covid before the public became aware of it. If that’s the case, then it’s absolute proof that “natural immunity” is completely worthless. If millions got it that early, then by the time countermeasures were put in place, everyone would have had it. And yet, it’s still with us and spreading, despite everyone supposedly having “natural immunity”. Back in spring of 2020, a friend of mine came down with some sort of respiratory infection. His doctor thought that it was most likely covid, but didn’t think there was much point in ordering a test, because the tests available at the time weren’t all that reliable, and it wouldn’t have made any difference in treatment anyway: Whether it was covid or not, the proper treatment was quarantine, rest, proper fluids and nutrition, and monitoring. That friend still thinks it was probably covid. And as soon as he was eligible for the vaccine, he immediately got it. Because he’s no idiot. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/27 "2021-10-15T21:41:19Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You would not believe how many people I heard say they had a bad cold in January/February 2020, and then assume they must have “got it early”, and that they’re now immune. We were in Detroit mid-Feb 2020. A few days after returning, my older daughter was quite sick, my wife and younger daughter less so, and I felt lousy for a day. In retrospect, we thought it might have been Covid but given co-morbidities I would expect to have been suffered the worst, contrary to what happened. Antibody test were not widely available here until last fall when they likely wouldn’t have shown anything anyone. When the vaccines became available, I got mine on the second day my age group was eligible since it was the earliest appointment. What I don’t understand is that even if you DO have natural immunity, how would the vaccine make your immunity worse? ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/28 "2021-10-15T21:43:15Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > I have long thought I had had Covid and yesterday my sister and I went for an antibody test; both of us tested Positive. I’m a bit surprised you got your results that fast. Where did you get tested? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/29 "2021-10-15T21:49:20Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > [https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101](https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101) There are about 330 million people in the US, 200 million of whom have been vaccinated. If there are also 100 million who have been infected, either the vaccine and/or natural immunity are worthless **or** this is much more contagious than scientists claim because with 2000 deaths a day we still clearly haven’t reached herd immunity despite over 90% of Americans allegedly having either natural or vaccinated immunity. Or, you know, 100 million haven’t actually been infected. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/30 "2021-10-15T22:10:43Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > OP – did you get the answers you need? Yes. Thank you all. I just didn’t have anything to add outside of my original speculation. It’s why I asked the question, for my own elucidation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/31 "2021-10-16T00:55:24Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > Personal FWIT: I was never tested for Covid. Very early on (before I / we had ever heard of Covid) several members of my immediate family developed a long-lasting dry cough and my mother lost her sense of taste (she died of other causes before the taste thing became known). I have long thought I had had Covid and yesterday my sister and I went for an antibody test; both of us tested Positive. I thought it was unlikely that a person would still have antibodies present this long afterward. Likely you had an (or another) infection much more recently, probably asymptomatically. And as far as your mother losing her sense of taste, that also happens with plenty of other respiratory infections, such as a common cold. You just can’t be certain of being infected back then. But congrats on not being vaccinated and spreading germs while infectious nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/32 "2021-10-16T01:15:50Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > And as far as your mother losing her sense of taste, that also happens with plenty of other respiratory infections, such as a common cold. Are there other ones where that’s the only symptom, though? I’m fully vaccinated but mostly lost my sense of taste in January 2020 for about a month. I was not otherwise sick so I just wrote off food seeming tasteless/blah as another sign of being depressed over losing my dad and favorite cat in quick succession… ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/33 "2021-10-16T01:37:12Z")
In many countries, having recovered from covid with the past n months counts like vaccination. Why not in the US? 1. other countries may have a national health systems and some uniform way to indicate a medically confirmed case of covid. We don’t. 2. the FDA is conservative as fuck, and there aren’t as many studies of immunity from infection as there are of immunity from vaccination. The emerging data suggests that infection is probably better than a single dose of mRNA vaccine. And that immunity from infection might linger longer. But I’ve also seen studies that suggest that mild covid doesn’t confer much immunity. Only moderate or serious covid does. There’s a great deal of uncertainty. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/34 "2021-10-16T04:26:03Z")
There’s no way in living hell I’d voluntarily choose to get Covid (deliberately or otherwise) in order to gain “natural immunity”, with its attendant risk of becoming severely sick or severely dead or having “long covid”. Talk about possible adverse side-effects! What in the world makes people think like this? Just let me get the shots as soon as possible! (Which, as I noted above, I did, like all sensible people.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/35 "2021-10-16T05:11:37Z")
But what if you already caught covid. Not because that was your choice, but because you were unlucky. If there’s a vaccine mandate, do you ALSO need to be vaccinated? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/36 "2021-10-16T05:13:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But what if you already caught covid. Not because that was your choice, but because you were unlucky. If there’s a vaccine mandate, do you ALSO need to be vaccinated?   Never mind if I’d “need” the vax in that case. I feel sure that I would jump right on it. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/37 "2021-10-16T14:26:18Z")
@Esprise_Me “I’m a bit surprised you got your results that fast. Where did you get tested? “ At a CVS Minute Clinic. The antibody test is a finger prick – results in five minutes. Cost was $39 out of pocket; insurance will not pay for it. This is not a test to determine if you currently have or recently had Covid; it to determine previous infection. Having been vaccinated will also cause one to test positive for antibodies. [https://www.cvs.com/minuteclinic](https://www.cvs.com/minuteclinic) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/38 "2021-10-16T15:08:31Z")
I took the same test. I think i had to wait 15 minutes, but yeah, it’s a walk-in, get-results test. This particular one does not distinguish between antibodies from infection and antibodies from vaccination. There are other antibody tests that do, but i don’t think there are any that are available without a doctor’s prescription right now. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/39 "2021-10-16T15:11:30Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > But what if you already caught covid. Not because that was your choice, but because you were unlucky. If there’s a vaccine mandate, do you ALSO need to be vaccinated?   > > Never mind if I’d “need” the vax in that case. I feel sure that I would jump right on it. I am vaccine hesitant for the measles vaccine, because i had a bad reaction to it as a child. There was some question as to whether the batch i got was effective, and i chose to get tested for antibodies rather than get revaccinated. I have antibodies to measles, so “yay, i don’t need that shot.” I am not hesitant re covid, and plan to get a booster shot on Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2021, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-debate-about-natural-immunity-wrt-having-had-covid-19/952459/40 "2021-10-19T07:01:28Z")
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