# Explain the difference between a forward lateral, a shovel pass, and whatever that underhand thing is that Mahomes does **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-nfl\ **Created:** [October 4, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878 "2021-10-04T16:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/1 "2021-10-04T16:52:34Z")
Correct me if/where I’m wrong here. A “lateral” is when the player with the ball (usually the QB) flips it to a player alongside or behind him with a sort of underhanded toss. This is legal. A “forward lateral” is the same sort of toss but advancing the ball forward. This is illegal. My understanding has always been that a forward pass must be thrown overhand. Then it seems like somewhere back in the Elway era this thing called a “shovel pass” came into being. It was a forward pass but not thrown overhand, more like pushed forward with one or both hands at about chest level. This is also legal, although I have never really understood why. And now there is this thing that Patrick Mahomes does which clearly seems to be an underhanded forward pass - sort of like fast pitch softball, as I’ve heard it described. And this is also apparently legal. So, how is it not a forward lateral? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/2 "2021-10-04T16:57:50Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > My understanding has always been that a forward pass must be thrown overhand. This is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/3 "2021-10-04T17:11:25Z")
To expand a bit, the mechanics of the throw make no difference in either case. A lateral is when the ball is thrown back - usually it’s done as an underhand toss, but it can be done overhand as well. Sometimes you’ll see a play where the QB will throw overhand to a receiver out wide, such that the pass travels slightly backwards. That receiver can then throw a forward pass himself, because the first pass is actually a lateral. Similarly, a forward pass just means the ball is thrown forward. Usually it’s an overhand throw, but it can also be a shovel pass, underhand throw, or a little touch pass where the QB receives the snap and almost bats it forward to a receiver. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/4 "2021-10-04T17:11:35Z")
It’s perfectly legal to throw a forward pass with any motion. Underhand, overhand, all good. Now, on the topic of passes, though - hope this isn’t a hijack - what I don’t understand is why, when a quarterback spikes a ball so that the ball either is at the same spot as his feet, or slightly backwards - why the refs don’t consider that to be a lateral. By every interpretation of the rules, that ought to be a lateral that the defense can recover. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/5 "2021-10-04T17:18:17Z")
And what makes some passes illegal is that you can only throw a forward pass from behind the line of scrimmage. I think there might also be a limit of one forward pass per play, but that’s not very relevant, because one forward pass will almost always at least get you past the line of scrimmage. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/6 "2021-10-04T17:21:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > when a quarterback spikes a ball so that the ball either is at the same spot as his feet It’s explicitly allowed as an exception to the Intentional Grounding rule: > A player under center is permitted to stop the game clock legally to save time if, immediately upon receiving the snap, he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball directly into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/7 "2021-10-04T17:23:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It’s perfectly legal to throw a forward pass with any motion. Underhand, overhand, all good. So, does that mean there is no such thing as a forward lateral? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/8 "2021-10-04T17:24:35Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > A “forward lateral” is the same sort of toss but advancing the ball forward. I think part of the confusion lies here, at least to me. My understanding is there is no such thing, as the entire premise of a lateral doesn’t allow the ball to advance downfield in the act of the lateral, hence it must be either behind the passer or perpendicular in relationship to the goal line. It’s also why you can lateral multiple times but only have a single forward pass, which can be in addition to the laterals, as noted by @borschevsky. > [@Velocity](#): > > Now, on the topic of passes, though - hope this isn’t a hijack - what I don’t understand is why, when a quarterback spikes a ball so that the ball either is at the same spot as his feet, or slightly backwards - why the refs don’t consider that to be a lateral. By every interpretation of the rules, that ought to be a lateral that the defense can recover. This falls into the intentional grounding rules, as it is considered an exception to those rules (it meets all of the criteria). From [here](https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/intentional-grounding/): > A player under center is permitted to stop the game clock legally to save time if, immediately upon receiving the snap, he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball directly into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/9 "2021-10-04T17:26:22Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > forward lateral? The phrase “forward lateral” is used exclusively to discuss a play in which an attempted lateral pass was incorrectly executed and was actually a forward pass. There’s no such thing as a literal “forward lateral.” It’s either lateral (ball is caught by receiver behind or even with the point at which the ball left the passer’s hand) or it’s forward. They’re mutually exclusive. And none of it has anything to do with throwing action. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/10 "2021-10-04T17:29:55Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > It’s explicitly allowed as an exception to the Intentional Grounding rule: And, that rules change (at least in the NFL) is relatively recent – instituted in the early '90s, if I remember correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/11 "2021-10-04T17:31:01Z")
Ok so it sounds like my whole basic premise is flawed. I thought a lateral was a specific style of pass to the side or behind, and that same style of pass could not legally be made in a forward direction. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/12 "2021-10-04T17:31:55Z")
And @Shoeless, if you want to see laterals gone crazy, this is probably the most famous example of multiple laterals, none of which advance the ball during the action of performing the lateral, some overhand, some underhand, some just sort of pushed, but none forward. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/mfebpLfAt8g/hqdefault.jpg "Cal Bears Football 82: The Play") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfebpLfAt8g) ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/13 "2021-10-04T17:34:19Z")
Oh yeah, “The Play” with the Stanford Marching Band. Who could ever forget that. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/14 "2021-10-04T17:36:47Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > Ok so it sounds like my whole basic premise is flawed. I thought a lateral was a specific style of pass to the side or behind, and that same style of pass could not legally be made in a forward direction. Don’t feel badly – it’s a common misconception, and I see the term “forward lateral” frequently used incorrectly. The big differences between forward passes and laterals are: - A team can only legally throw one forward pass per play; multiple laterals are allowed - On a forward pass, only the eligible receivers (i.e., not the five linemen) may be beyond the line of scrimmage at the time that the pass is thrown; that restriction does not apply to laterals - On a forward pass, the passer must be at or behind the line of scrimmage at the time of the throw; that restriction, as well, doesn’t apply to laterals Edit: two more _big_ differences: - A forward pass which is not caught, and hits the ground, is an incomplete pass, and therefore a dead ball. A lateral which is not caught, and hits the ground, is still a live ball (it’s treated as a fumble), and can be recovered by any player. - Of the offensive players, only the eligible receivers (i.e., wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs) are eligible to legally catch a forward pass (the quarterback is also considered to be an eligible receiver, if he did not start the play “under center”). Any player is eligible to catch a lateral. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/15 "2021-10-04T17:38:49Z")
Also called “The Stanford Band Play” because Stanford’s band, thinking the game was over, was coming out onto the field. “Lateral” just means that the ball does not go forward. Don’t really care if it’s overhand, underhand, pushed, pitched. The biggest thing is that it is a live ball - if it is not caught, the other team can pick it up and gain possession, as opposed to if a forward pass is not caught, the ball is dead. Not sure if that holds up on a flea-flicker play - where the QB laterals to a receiver, who then throws it downfield. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/16 "2021-10-04T17:45:14Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Not sure if that holds up on a flea-flicker play - where the QB laterals to a receiver, who then throws it downfield. On a flea flicker, the lateral back is a live ball as noted. If it’s dropped, the defense is welcome to pick it up and gain possession, as well as advancing the ball. Once the ball leaves the hand of the person passing it forward, it’s just a standard pass. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/17 "2021-10-04T17:51:11Z")
One more rules difference between the two types of passes: if you look at passing stats for quarterbacks and teams, laterals aren’t included (i.e., passing stats only incorporate forward passes). From a statistical standpoint, laterals are effectively just really long handoffs. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/18 "2021-10-04T18:08:22Z")
Stanford fans argue endlessly that the last lateral – thrown blindly from one Cal player to another behind him – was illegal. That because of the forward momentum of the thrower and the receiver, the ball was actually caught farther downfield than when it was thrown. Stanford fans say lots of stupid things. 🙂 And no referee would ever blow the whistle on that kind of lateral because it certainly _looks_ legal in real time. And by the way…I was in the stands for The Play. It’s my claim to fame. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/19 "2021-10-04T18:11:14Z")
Okay, right near the end there - did he _deliberately_ slam that Band Guy to the ground? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/20 "2021-10-04T18:14:37Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > And no referee would ever blow the whistle on that kind of lateral because it certainly _looks_ legal in real time. And, in 1982, there were no video reviews of plays by the officials which could have been used to challenge that non-call. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878.md?page=2)