# Explain the difference between a forward lateral, a shovel pass, and whatever that underhand thing is that Mahomes does **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-nfl\ **Created:** [October 4, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878 "2021-10-04T16:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/41 "2021-10-05T18:43:03Z")
That’s actually a pretty good point about them coming together and discussing it anytime there’s an intentional grounding call. I don’t ever remember an immediate intentional grounding flag and then announcement in the last few seasons. It’s always a conference first. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/42 "2021-10-05T19:02:36Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > But if it’s a backward pass, the additional loss of yardage would benefit the defense more than the grounding call, and they would decline the penalty. No, the grounding penalty comes with the loss of down and a 10 yard walk off. It’s the sack plus 10 yards. If the player chucks it 1 yard up field, it’s a 10 yard additional loss. If he chucks it backwards 1 yard, it’s a 1 yard additional loss. So there’s value in getting the call right. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/43 "2021-10-05T19:18:10Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > … the grounding penalty comes with the loss of down and a 10 yard walk off. In the NFL it’s a spot foul – loss of down, with the ball placed where the QB was when he threw the ball. So, for all intents and purposes, identical to the result if he’d been sacked there. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/44 "2021-10-05T19:22:11Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > In the NFL it’s a spot foul – loss of down, with the ball placed where the QB was when he threw the ball. So, for all intents and purposes, identical to the result if he’d been sacked there. It’s a spot foul OR 10 yards from the previous spot, depending on which is more. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/45 "2021-10-05T19:22:48Z")
Yes, right – thanks for the correction! ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/46 "2021-10-05T20:58:58Z")
So, if the backward pass went out of bounds more than 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage, the grounding penalty should be declined. Otherwise, accept the penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/47 "2021-10-05T21:14:33Z")
Of course, in the real world, no pass will ever be perfectly parallel to the yard lines. Every pass will be either slightly forward, or slightly backwards (and of course, it’s the officials’ job to decide which it is when it’s close). ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/48 "2021-10-05T21:22:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I don’t ever remember an immediate intentional grounding flag and then announcement in the last few seasons. It’s a special case, but in 2018 Patrick Mahomes got an immediate intentional grounding call for spiking the ball when the clock wasn’t running. Oops… [Ref made the right call on Patrick Mahomes grounding penalty - NBC Sports](https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/11/04/ref-made-the-right-call-on-patrick-mahomes-grounding-penalty/) ---
**Author:** ![FastDan1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fastdan1/32/427_2.png) [@FastDan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FastDan1)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/49 "2021-10-05T21:42:07Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > But if it’s a backward pass, the additional loss of yardage would benefit the defense more than the grounding call, and they would decline the penalty. Intentional Grounding only applies to a forward pass. If it’s backwards, there’s no Intentional Grounding and no penalty to decline. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/50 "2021-10-05T21:57:34Z")
Yeah, throwing it backwards out of bounds would be recorded as a fumble out of bounds. The only situation where I can see a ref even possibly throwing a flag would be if the ball was thrown parallel. Refs sometimes get things wrong in the heat of the moment, but backwards tosses aren’t all that uncommon. Ones that go out of bounds less common but not to the extent I can see the refs botching the call and tossing flags. Also, that’s in the job description of the Line Judge, who rules whether passes are forward or laterals (since they’re lined up on the line of scrimmage). They’re not going to toss a flag on an intentional grounding on anything going backwards. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/51 "2021-10-06T19:20:55Z")
I’d like to add that any ball carrier, when within the list two minutes of a half, can’t just throw the ball out of bounds to stop the clock, even if backwards. The NFL didn’t impose a penalty beyond keeping the clock running\*, but in the NCAA there’s a five yard flag with lots of down. \*: technically they start the clock on the head ref’s ready-for-play signal. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/52 "2021-10-07T00:11:09Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Of the offensive players, only the eligible receivers (i.e., wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs) are eligible to legally catch a forward pass (the quarterback is also considered to be an eligible receiver, if he did not start the play “under center”). Any player is eligible to catch a lateral. Does the QB really have to not start the play under center in order to be an eligible receiver? Occasionally, I’ve seen the QB catch a tipped pass. It’s considered a legal catch, even though they threw it. So I don’t think your caveat about being “under center” actually exists. … > [@Shoeless](#): > > “The Play” with the Stanford Marching Band. Who could ever forget that. Random trivia: the losing quarterback in that game was one John Elway. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/53 "2021-10-07T00:19:25Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Occasionally, I’ve seen the QB catch a tipped pass. It’s considered a legal catch, even though they threw it. Once the ball is tipped, everyone on the field is eligible to catch it. There’s also no pass interference rules if the ball has been tipped. You can go ahead and fully tackle the intended receiver if you want. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/54 "2021-10-07T00:47:03Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Does the QB really have to not start the play under center in order to be an eligible receiver? > > Occasionally, I’ve seen the QB catch a tipped pass. It’s considered a legal catch, even though they threw it. So I don’t think your caveat about being “under center” actually exists. In the NFL, if the QB starts the play under center, he is not an eligible receiver. [From the NFL web site](https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/ineligible-receiver/): > [@](#): > > e) A player who takes his stance behind center as a T-formation quarterback is not an eligible receiver unless, before the ball is snapped, he legally moves to a position at least one yard behind the line of scrimmage or on the end of the line, and is stationary in that position for at least one second before the snap. However, to your second paragraph, if a pass is tipped (by an eligible receiver, or by any defender), the rule about eligible receivers is suspended, and **all** members of the offense (including the linemen, as well as an under-center quarterback) subsequently become eligible receivers. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/55 "2021-10-07T02:10:27Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > if a pass is tipped (by an eligible receiver, or by any defender) So just to clarify, if the quarterback throws the ball and it bounces off the back of the center’s helmet and pops up into the air, that’s not a tipped ball, that’s a penalty for ineligible receiver? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/56 "2021-10-07T02:14:50Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > So just to clarify, if the quarterback throws the ball and it bounces off the back of the center’s helmet and pops up into the air, that’s not a tipped ball, that’s a penalty for ineligible receiver? Correct. If the first person to touch a forward pass, in any way (including off the helmet), after it leaves the passer’s hand, is an ineligible receiver, it’s a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/57 "2021-10-07T13:13:49Z")
I’m not sure about that. The [NFL rulebook](https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_Rule8_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf) says: > Article 8 Illegal Touching of a Forward Pass. It is a foul for illegal touching if a forward pass (legal or > illegal), thrown from behind the line of scrimmage: > (a) is first touched intentionally or is caught by an ineligible offensive player; or > (b) first touches or is caught by an eligible receiver who has gone out of bounds, either of his own volition > or by being legally forced out of bounds, and has re-established himself inbounds. Note the “intentionally”. It sounds like an accidental hit isn’t a penalty, which the back of the helmet almost certainly would be. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/58 "2021-10-07T14:10:31Z")
From the examples given in the rulebook: > A.R. 8.20 Second-and-10 on A40. A legal forward pass touches ineligible guard A1 behind the line. The ball is then intercepted by a defensive player who returns it to the A20. > Ruling: Pass not incomplete when A1 touched by ball. Pass continues in play. B’s ball first-and-10 on A20. This is distinguished in other examples by the word “intentional” when describing ineligible receivers. I agree that bouncing the ball off a guard’s helmet isn’t a penalty, nor does it result in a dead ball. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/59 "2021-10-07T14:27:40Z")
But an illegal touch doesn’t end the play, unless the player is out of bounds (and then it isn’t an illegal touch: > Note 1: If a forward pass (legal or illegal) is caught by an ineligible offensive player, the ball remains alive. > Note 2: The bat of a pass in flight by any player does not end a pass, nor does it change the impetus if the bat > sends it in touch. > Note 3: If a player touches the ball after having been out of bounds, but prior to re-establishing himself > inbounds with both feet or any part of his body other than his hands, the pass is incomplete, and there is > no penalty for illegal touching. So even if a lineman catches the ball, the play is still live. It’s not until after the play that they decide there was an illegal touch and assess a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878/60 "2021-10-07T14:32:39Z")
From another note: > Second-and-10 on A40. A legal forward pass is intentionally touched by ineligible guard A1 behind the line. > The ball is then intercepted by the defensive team which returns it to the A30, fumbles, and the ball is > recovered by the passing team at the A28. > Ruling: Five-yard penalty for touching ineligible receiver behind the line. A’s ball second-and-15 on A35. Again, the word “intentionally” is prominently used. If the touch was unintentional, I could infer that there would be no penalty. It’s not explicit, but it seems to be the gist of the examples. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-difference-between-a-forward-lateral-a-shovel-pass-and-whatever-that-underhand-thing-is-that-mahomes-does/951878.md?page=4)