# Explain the neocon "Better Hillary Than McCain" thing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061 "2008-02-10T19:44:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![want2know](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@want2know](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2know)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/81 "2008-02-13T18:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=John DiFool] What if a Democratic administration is seen by a solid majority of voters as a success? Then the far right wing will have marginalized itself almost completely out of the picture. That BTW is basically what is happening on the Republican side. Oh yeah they’ll continue ranting and raving but few will pay attention (and in the case of those who are more entertainer than commentator, just watch how fast they change their tunes in the face of declining viewership/book sales). [/QUOTE] I agree completely with your assessment of the current situation. If you look at the numbers, McCain is the solid favorite among the GOP voters everywhere outside the paleocon’s traditional strongholds in the Bible Belt. This strengthens your “marginalization” theory. The far right has been damaged by the ineffectiveness of the past 7 years of their anointed savior, and what we are witnessing, IMHO, are their final death throes. The extreme right wing of the party is becoming increasingly irrelevant; a large number of Republicans seem to want to return to what the party has traditionally stood for–fiscal responsibility and limited government. So the ERW has resorted to what they do best–lashing out. The problem is that they are lashing out against a fellow Republican, and this can only serve to damage the party even further–more damage than McCain could ever do. And the Democrats (myself included) are loving every minute of it. So keep it up, extreme-righties–you’re playing right into our hands! And to the moderate Pubs out there, a piece of advice: start talking louder than your ultra-right brethren and take control of the ship again before they sink you for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/82 "2008-02-13T19:47:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] They will work like the devil to ensure the Democrats fail, even at the expense of the welfare of the country. Regaining power is more important than prosperity or peace. [/QUOTE] Discouraging but so true ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/83 "2008-02-13T21:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=want2know] The far right has been damaged by the ineffectiveness of the past 7 years of their anointed savior, and what we are witnessing, IMHO, are their final death throes. [/QUOTE] As with the Iraqi insurgency, I wish I could believe that, but I’m afraid they’re too committed, too well-organized, and too well- **funded** to go gentle into the good night. Best-case scenario, they’ll become like the left wing (the **really** left wing – Socialists, Greens, etc.) in American politics has been since the 1940s – usually marginal, but occasionally (and sometimes decisively) resurgent. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/84 "2008-02-13T23:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I tell you, I see those McCain ads and I think he’s not running for President, he’s running for Commander in Chief. [/QUOTE] Yeah. And I would be glad to give him SecDef, so long as it was just SecDef, & he had to answer to another as Head of Government. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/85 "2008-02-14T02:55:37Z")
Speaking as someone who is unquestionably a leftwing nutcase… The Repubkican Party really fucked up. Staking their future on a dumbass like Dubya left them with almost no recourse. McCain isn’t an evil person, though he could certainly cause some evil. He’s unappealing, and as a standard bearer it’s gonna be iffy. I want so much to leave the neocons crying. A polite bow to the conservative Dopers, and I still disagree with you. 🙂 I’m actually a registered Republican! Has to do with state law regarding who can certify votes. And I want YOU yes YOU to vote dammit! I don’t care WHAT you vote, just get out and vote! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/86 "2008-02-16T02:23:03Z")
McCain would be happy if we stayed in Iraq for 100 years. No thanks. Does not work for me. Like the Onion said when Bush got elected.; Thank god the times of peace and prosperity are finally over. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/87 "2008-02-16T02:56:17Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] How many states did McCain get over 50% in? [/QUOTE] D.C., Maryland, Virginia, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York – seven states, and there were at least 4 or 5 more that he would have won with a majority instead of a plurality had there been 2 serious candidates still in instead of 3, as there were on the other side since before Super Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/88 "2008-02-16T03:11:14Z")
I always vote Democrat as a matter of course, but I’m no Republican hater. I even like Bush! There are good and bad things about both parties, but in general I like the Democrats’ policies better overall. I’m just fine with Republicans in power, though; it’s never made one bit of difference in my life who was in office, even when I lived in the US. For me in THIS particular case, I could never vote for someone in their 70s for president. That’s simply too old. I like feeling reasonably assured that a president wil live through two terms. Out of 300 million people, I do not believe that someone that old is the best that could be found. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/89 "2008-02-16T03:52:03Z")
Oh, and I’m not a neo-con. I glossed over that part of the thread title when reading it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/90 "2008-02-16T04:00:13Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] McCain would be happy if we stayed in Iraq for 100 years. No thanks. Does not work for me. Like the Onion said when Bush got elected.; Thank god the times of peace and prosperity are finally over. [/QUOTE] People keep misquoting what McCain said. What he actually said was that he wouldn’t mind Americans being there for 100 years, _if they were not taking any casualties_. He then drew a direct comparison to the soldiers stationed in South Korea, Germany, and Okinawa. They’ve been there for over 60 years. If Iraq became friendly with the U.S. and asked American troops to stay to protect them against countries like Iran, and the Americans were liked enough that they could live with the population, bring their families over, and help build ties to a country in a strategically critical part of the world, why on earth would you not be in favor of that? Whether this is likely to happen is another question, but McCain was clearly commenting on this kind of a scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/91 "2008-02-21T16:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] People keep misquoting what McCain said. What he actually said was that he wouldn’t mind Americans being there for 100 years, _if they were not taking any casualties_. He then drew a direct comparison to the soldiers stationed in South Korea, Germany, and Okinawa. They’ve been there for over 60 years. If Iraq became friendly with the U.S. and asked American troops to stay to protect them against countries like Iran, and the Americans were liked enough that they could live with the population, bring their families over, and help build ties to a country in a strategically critical part of the world, why on earth would you not be in favor of that? Whether this is likely to happen is another question, but McCain was clearly commenting on this kind of a scenario. [/QUOTE] Oh, so McCain was evading the issue by changing the subject to something that might happen in Fantasyland. That’s a huge improvement over what we all thought he said… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/92 "2008-02-21T17:07:43Z")
The issue of war. While neither McCain nor Clinton expressed unwillingness to stampede behind the Bush administration into the Iraq war, it seems to me that between the two, McCain seems ever so slightly less likely to engage in yet another war for domestic political gain. On that basis, it is not inconceivable that McCain could be more attractive to me, and therefore entirely unattractive to the neocons. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/93 "2008-02-21T17:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] People keep misquoting what McCain said. What he actually said was that he wouldn’t mind Americans being there for 100 years, _if they were not taking any casualties_. He then drew a direct comparison to the soldiers stationed in South Korea, Germany, and Okinawa. They’ve been there for over 60 years. [/quote] Is that what he believes or not? [He has also said](http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/28/mccain-korea-withdrawal/): > [@](#): > > ROSE: Do you think that this — Korea, South Korea is an analogy of where Iraq might be, not in terms of their economic success but in terms of an American presence over the next, say, 20, 25 years, that we will have a significant amount of troops there? > > MCCAIN: I don’t think so. > > ROSE: Even if there are no casualties? > > MCCAIN: No. But I can see an American presence for a while. But eventually I think because of the nature of the society in Iraq and the religious aspects of it that America eventually withdraws. So which is the straight talk, and which is the weaseling flip flop? Is Korea a model or is it not? Further, what is his straight position on how long Americans should continue to take casualties in Iraq? Would that be a hundred years? Ten years? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/94 "2008-02-21T21:02:48Z")
[QUOTE=The Them] Speaking as someone who is unquestionably a leftwing nutcase… The Repubkican Party really fucked up. Staking their future on a dumbass like Dubya left them with almost no recourse. McCain isn’t an evil person, though he could certainly cause some evil. He’s unappealing, and as a standard bearer it’s gonna be iffy. [/QUOTE] I disagree that the screwed up. They got the Presidency, they got Congress. They got to implement the policies that wing has been pushing for for years. And it was a disaster. And I know the true believers will say that if only Congress voted against sending money to their districts in order to cut spending everything would be okay. Dubya appointed incompetents, but that was part of the Rove philosophy of stocking the government with loyal commisars ^h^h^h Republicans. That wasn’t a screw up either, that was intentional. And I was a Republican for over 30 years before Bush and the crew sickened me so much I switched. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061/95 "2008-02-28T07:54:01Z")
**Voyager,** my respect for being brave enough to change your mind. Now all you have to do is become insane, like me. 🙂 The long-term damage the neocons have inflicted on this country is indisputable. So yeah, they got that. My _hope_ is that they’ve discredited themselves enough so that they’ll have to go into hibernation for a while. For the OP: I think that the neocons have decided that the next presidential term will be a disaster, no matter WHO wins, and they’d rather a clear enemy (name your Democrat) gets to take credit for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-neocon-better-hillary-than-mccain-thing/437061.md?page=4)