# Explain the "poor" mentality to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558 "2013-06-09T16:21:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/161 "2013-06-12T18:57:34Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > We’ve already seen a statistic that 2/3s of the poor don’t even work full-time, so don’t give me grief over assuming they’ve got one day a week off. How many of those poor who don’t work fulltime are elderly or disabled people who can’t? I’d imagine a not insignicant portion. If the statistic is bandied about by conservatives to prove the poor are lazy or unemployable, to use that stat honestly you would have to discount those people. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/162 "2013-06-12T19:00:39Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > We’ve already seen a statistic that 2/3s of the poor don’t even work full-time, so don’t give me grief over assuming they’ve got one day a week off. > > And if the vermin can get into a crock pot, the solution is to put it in an oven. (This is already a more energy-efficient option for anyone). If the vermin can get into a refrigerator… well, I think we call those kids, and I’m assuming you want to keep them. 🙂 You clearly did not read the cite, nor do you know anything about vermin infestation, which makes your condescension particularly funny. 2/3 of the poor do not work full time _year round_ because they work in businesses such as agriculture which do not offer work all through the year. And I’ve never had a serious roach or rat infestation (thank GOD) but I know that they can absolutely get into crock pots, ovens, and refrigerators. I’m sure this will make no difference to your opinion, but I thought other readers might want to know. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/163 "2013-06-12T19:26:48Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That is not true in the least. You don’t have to have a lifetime caste type system I didn’t say or imply otherwise > [@](#): > > to get the 'grunt work" done. People can do it when they are in high school or college just like me and many others did to earn extra money while studying to do something different as a career. I doubt that this is workable–are there really enough man-hours available in that pool? > [@](#): > > Some people also like ‘grunt work’ more than they like more cerebral occupations especially if the physical job pays the same or more. This may be true. So let’s guarantee every person can quit their job without it being a disaster for them or their family and see what happens, right? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/164 "2013-06-12T19:28:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d like to see the context of those discussions. Can you provide links? Yipes, I wish I could. One of them I remember was very stark, and I called it out on the spot IIRC. The second incident was just something I noticed in passing. Sorry I don’t recall enough details to successfully search them out. _Possibly_ the actual phrase “grunt work” was involved. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/165 "2013-06-12T19:38:32Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > We’ve already seen a statistic that 2/3s of the poor don’t even work full-time, so don’t give me grief over assuming they’ve got one day a week off. So you’re spinning not being able to find a full time job into one of the advantages of being poor? And what’s full unemployment - a permanent vacation? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/166 "2013-06-12T19:48:42Z")
Probably time to move this one over to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/167 "2013-06-12T20:52:58Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > 2/3 of the poor do not work full time _year round_ because they work in businesses such as agriculture which do not offer work all through the year. Cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/168 "2013-06-12T21:09:37Z")
Working part time is not an advantage per se, but it certainly contraindicates “I can’t do X because I work too much”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/169 "2013-06-12T21:14:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cite? For heaven’s sake, **Shodan** , don’t you read your _own_ cites? That information is from the link in your very own post #63: > [@](#): > > The working poor are over-represented among agricultural workers and machine operators, work that often involves seasonal employment. On rereading, it occurs to me that you may have thought **miss elizabeth** was claiming that seasonal agricultural employment accounts for **all** the working poor who don’t work full-time year-round. But I don’t think that’s what she meant. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/170 "2013-06-12T22:25:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Wow, defensive overreaction much? I didn’t say word one about expecting that jobs should be preserved in perpetuity or that nobody should have to cope with change. > > I simply pointed out that **njtt** was quite right in noting that the market mechanisms of a capitalist system intrinsically depend on making winners and losers, and that **Quartz** was off base in trying to deny that fact. I’m not getting defensive. I don’t think that’s a constructive way of looking at capitalism. It’s not about making “winners and loser”. It’s about giving people the freedom to make choices about what products they buy, what jobs they apply for, who they hire and so on. Capitalism gives anyone the right to go start whatever company they want to start. It doesn’t guarantee it will stay in business. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Market fundamentalists can get really touchy if they think anybody is saying anything in any way negative about capitalism, and I think that’s an irrational reaction. _Of course_ the effects of economic fluctuations in capitalist systems are painful for some of those affected by them; that, as you noted, is the very reason why we also have non-capitalist mechanisms like unemployment insurance and welfare, so why get upset when somebody merely points it out? Well, I think people are confusing an economic system (capitalism) with government services. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/171 "2013-06-12T22:33:11Z")
Does that 2/3’s figure count under-the-table work? Because a lot of people work under AND over the table to make ends meet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/172 "2013-06-13T00:08:36Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Yipes, I wish I could. One of them I remember was very stark, and I called it out on the spot IIRC. The second incident was just something I noticed in passing. Sorry I don’t recall enough details to successfully search them out. _Possibly_ the actual phrase “grunt work” was involved. I find [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15647800), in which you were the OP and which explores the issue, but i don’t find an exchange that matches your description. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/173 "2013-06-13T00:18:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m not getting defensive. > > I don’t think that’s a constructive way of looking at capitalism. It’s not about making “winners and loser”. It’s about giving people the freedom to make choices about what products they buy, what jobs they apply for, who they hire and so on. Capitalism gives anyone the right to go start whatever company they want to start. It doesn’t guarantee it will stay in business. It isn’t constructive only if you want to retain the status quo. It is constructive if you want to argue that capitalism has problems and that we need to fix them. Your way of looking at it is just handwaving the problems. Even if you think that capitalism is the best system we have, you should be able to acknowledge its faults. If your view minimizes the faults, then it is the nonconstructive one. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/174 "2013-06-13T00:33:30Z")
If anyone thinks that poor people don’t go to college out of choice, they are horribly deluded. Everyone knows that a college education correlates with a higher income. The thing is, college is not free. Furthermore, the people who drop out of high school are almost invariably bad students. They wouldn’t graduate. That’s why they drop out. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/175 "2013-06-13T01:48:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Working part time is not an advantage per se, but it certainly contraindicates “I can’t do X because I work too much”. Unless “part time” means 35 hours a week (which it often does.) Or if it means you are on call and have an unstable schedule. Or if it means you work two part times jobs to make ends meet… ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/176 "2013-06-13T12:59:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Not necessarily. Saving $10 a week gets you $520 extra dollar a year. What are you going to get for that? Half a college credit? A used car that takes you ten years to save for? > > Is it actually worth grinding it out day after day, yet after year, living down the bare bone for an amount that is actually unlikely to make a noticeable difference and certainly not going to make a permanent change? Isn’t it a better investment to do something that will make your life a little better everyday- and maybe free up sometime to help the kids with their homework or look for a better job? Isn’t making life better what its all about in the end? > > The well off can do the “You can save for a down payment by cutting the morning latte” thing because they have a 4.00 morning latte to cut. Cutting out the .50 coffee isn’t going to have the same effect. $520 dollars can do quite a lot to help someone out of poverty. Among my neighbors are people who have lifted themselves out of poverty into at least stable lower middle class by using $500 dollars or less to purchase things like sewing machines, landscaping tools, freezers, vocational training, etc. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/177 "2013-06-13T13:47:47Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > So in summary, the “poor mentality” to me is a mindset that can’t be escaped, whereas poverty can with the right attitude and opportunity (and a touch of luck) That’s the issue I’ve been grappling with while thinking about this thread- it seems like there’s not much that can be done for people with that mentality without either being patronizing, oppressive or controlling. And throwing more money at them doesn’t really help either. I don’t know how you change attitudes like that; but nor do I want to subsidize people with those attitudes either; I have better things to do with my money. Oh, and the point of the $10 per week / $520 per year isn’t what you can buy with $520. That’s a perfect example of the counter-productive windfall mentality at work actually. The point is that once you have that $520, you have a $520 cushion against issues- you can pay for a doctor’s visit and a prescription, without it putting you in dire straits. You can get those new tires if the others go flat. You can get the fridge fixed, or whatever other issue befalls you. Or you have the capital to actually save money by buying in bulk. Rather than buying little bottles of shampoo because they’re $1 each and that’s what you can afford, you can spend $10, and get 15x the amount of shampoo. And, I’m guessing most people don’t have $520 of emergency issues year in and year out, so in your average year, you may actually come out ahead- that $520 may end up being $750 the following year, and $1000 the next year. At that point, you have some freedom to start making decisions beyond the immediate needs of “What do I have to pay today?”. THAT is why saving that $10 per week is important. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/178 "2013-06-13T14:18:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > On rereading, it occurs to me that you may have thought **miss elizabeth** was claiming that seasonal agricultural employment accounts for **all** the working poor who don’t work full-time year-round. But I don’t think that’s what she meant. She claimed that 2/3 of the poor do not work full time year round because they work in businesses such as agriculture which do not offer work all through the year. I would like to see a cite backing up that specific claim. She has been repeatedly and seriously misrepresenting what my cites say, and claiming that they don’t back up my specific assertions. They do. She should not expect to throw out assertions without any cites at all. So, let’s see a cite that [ul][li]2/3 - not three quarters, not 9/10, the specific figure of two thirds[/li][li]of the poor - not some of the poor, the poor in the US[/li][li]work part time because they work in seasonal agriculture, or industries that only offer part-time work.[/ul]I have made several specific claims, and backing them up. Let’s see her do the same.[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/179 "2013-06-13T14:25:35Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > If you are working hard labor, as many people are, a chicken breast and a bit of rice may not be enough food. And, you may want to leave taste aside, but people who are actually poor don’t have that luxury. Your meal tastes gross and boring. Food may be one of the only small pleasures the working poor have, and now you’ve taken that away as well? And why? It doesn’t sounds like you’ll save much money, and it isn’t even nutritionally complete. A decent frozen supreme pizza actually might be better for you, with the veggies and all. It’s certainly more enjoyable to eat. > > I’m sorry if I came across as confrontational, but I’ve seen a lot of similar discussions on here, and I find it somewhat frustrating. Being poor is exhausting and depressing. There’s not a good way to place yourself in their position, because if you are truly poor there is a ton of shit piling on you all at once. Questioners want to “set aside” taste, and availability of cooking implements, and lack of accessibility to a decent grocery store, and the difficulty of transporting multiple fresh ingredients when you don’t have reliable access to a car, and lack of time, and how expensive cooking equipment is, and lack of storage for all those ingredients and supplies, and all this other stuff, and sure, if you set all that aside being poor is easy. but actual real poor people can’t just set that stuff aside. That’s their daily, lived experience _and it is grinding_. And that’s just the food issue! Real poor people have a million other things going on in addition to that. > > I’m just tired of people who’ve never experienced that type of hardship judging the people who live it every day, and will probably never break free, and have little hope of seeing their kids or grandkids break free. Class mobility is mostly a myth; studies back that up, and it’s a feature of our society that many people simply overlook. When one person can’t improve their lot, maybe it’s them, but when huge swaths of the populace can’t, maybe its something endemic to our culture. But you aren’t interested in the systemic factors that create poverty; you want to know why poor people don’t eat rice. I find that attitude insulting and ignorant. You rock my world. Thank you for this post. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558/180 "2013-06-13T15:17:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And, I’m guessing most people don’t have $520 of emergency issues year in and year out, You are guessing way, way, way wrong. If your guess was even close, insurance would cost a lot less than it does. And a car affordable for a poor person is likely to cost much, much more than $500 a year in “emergency issues.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-poor-mentality-to-me/660558.md?page=10)